# "Psycho letters from men": Did this guy deserve the article? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 23, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037 "2009-07-23T21:07:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/121 "2009-07-26T00:54:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Jesus, way to totally misunderstand the point. I was calling YOU a hypocrite for Saying it was ok for her to be a liar and a scumbag (not to mention a stalker), but not for frat boy Todd. You can’t have it both ways. Good, bad or indifferent, she and Todd are exactly the same, but she’s a little more stupid, a little more crazy and a little more heartless. See, and I think it’s YOU who are the hypocrite, because you think she is a liar and a scumbag because she chose not to have sex with someone, a right that she absolutely has, whereas Todd didn’t do anything all that wrong. ETA: I have to wonder if “fraternity boys” as a demographic would appreciate being lumped in with Todd, or with him being used as the typical, expected frat boy poster child. I knew quite a few frat boys in my day, and the vast majority of them were not the scumbags that Todd is. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/122 "2009-07-26T00:56:48Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > 1. It’s implied that there is more than just those two. > 2. Learn to fucking add 2+1 (Todd) = 3 Yes, it’s implied. By the guy. Who I’m saying was being a dick in saying so. I know you’re fifty times smarter than I am, so see if you can catch where I’m headed with this one. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/123 "2009-07-26T01:05:45Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > See, and I think it’s YOU who are the hypocrite, because you think she is a liar and a scumbag because she chose not to have sex with someone, a right that she absolutely has, whereas Todd didn’t do anything all that wrong. No, she’s a liar and a scumbag because she promised she WOULD have sex with the guy if he stayed with her, and then broke the promise. She did exactly what he did, only in reverse. She promised sex in exchange for a relationship, he promised a relationship in exchange for sex. > [@](#): > > ETA: I have to wonder if “fraternity boys” as a demographic would appreciate being lumped in with Todd, or with him being used as the typical, expected frat boy poster child. I knew quite a few frat boys in my day, and the vast majority of them were not the scumbags that Todd is. Well, I’ve known at least as many fratboys as you have, I think you probably need to recalibrate your scumbag radar. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/124 "2009-07-26T01:08:41Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Yes, it’s implied. > > By the guy. Who I’m saying was being a dick in saying so. I know you’re fifty times smarter than I am, so see if you can catch where I’m headed with this one. No, she said herself earlier in the story that she had been in the habit of making out with random guys at parties. > [@](#): > > Kathy joined a sorority at her new college, providing her with ample opportunity to meet plenty of young fraternity men. She started drinking on weekends, hooked up with a few guys, made a lot of friends, but didn’t really find anyone intriguing enough to sleep with. “A few” is more than two. It’s certainly sufficient to sustain Todd’s suspicions. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/125 "2009-07-26T01:10:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, she’s a liar and a scumbag because she promised she WOULD have sex with the guy if he stayed with her, and then broke the promise. She did exactly what he did, only in reverse. She promised sex in exchange for a relationship, he promised a relationship in exchange for sex. Something you yourself said that she was 100% entitled to decide not to have sex with him. A person is as allowed to change their mind about having sex as they are allowed to change their mind about being in a relationship. Therefore, I don’t see how she’s WORSE than Todd. At least she never called her HS boyfriend a whore, or dumped him in the cruelest way possible, or anything like that. So, you’re wrong, by any objective measure, about who’s worse. You’re just doing that thing you do, where you entrench yourself in a view and then defend it to the death, in the face of all logic and reason, which means… this conversation is over. Go ahead and get in your parting shot. Your words on this topic are meaningless. > [@](#): > > Well, I’ve known at least as many fratboys as you have, I think you probably need to recalibrate your scumbag radar. Maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to stereotype people based on one descriptor. I know, though, that might be too hard for you, to see people as individuals and not as groups that you think ought to be scumbags. There are about 70 frats at Cornell, each with about 20 or so guys in them. I’m sure you’d think they were ALL scumbags. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/126 "2009-07-26T01:20:09Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > : I have to wonder if “fraternity boys” as a demographic would appreciate being lumped in with Todd, or with him being used as the typical, expected frat boy poster child. I knew quite a few frat boys in my day, and the vast majority of them were not the scumbags that Todd is. Believe me, most of us held this stereotype LONG before we’d ever read this. I personally know some great frat guys, but even they would tell you the stereotype exists for a reason. Not all fraternities admit douchebags, but it’s not uncommon. Yeah, I get where you are going with it Jimmy, but the point is in the two or three weeks it took her to figure out that she was pregnant while she was sending this guy a bunch of e-mails and texts and whatever else, she hooked up with two other guys at least, which she BTW confirms herself. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/127 "2009-07-26T01:20:49Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Something you yourself said that she was 100% entitled to decide not to have sex with him. A person is as allowed to change their mind about having sex as they are allowed to change their mind about being in a relationship. Therefore, I don’t see how she’s WORSE than Todd. At least she never called her HS boyfriend a whore, or dumped him in the cruelest way possible, or anything like that. So, you’re wrong, by any objective measure, about who’s worse. You’re just doing that thing you do, where you entrench yourself in a view and then defend it to the death, in the face of all logic and reason, which means… this conversation is over. Go ahead and get in your parting shot. Your words on this topic are meaningless. At least we agree that he was completely entitled to dump her. She was more cruel, though, because she did it took a guy who had hung on through a real relationship. She had no relationship with the frat boy. I also think it’s way more heartless to string a guy along as she did, promising him eventual sex, and then telling him he wasn’t as worthy of her virginity as some random slimeball at a frat party. > [@](#): > > Maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to stereotype people based on one descriptor. I know, though, that might be too hard for you, to see people as individuals and not as groups that you think ought to be scumbags. There are about 70 frats at Cornell, each with about 20 or so guys in them. I’m sure you’d think they were ALL scumbags. :rolleyes: More than half, at least, but by all means, if you have any daughters, you should teach them to trust drunken frat boys and believe everything they say. ETA what makess you think my impression of frat boys is based on “one descriptor??” My impression is based on having been around a lot of frat boys. I played a few frat party gigs with my band back in the day. Are they ALL douchebags? No, but like I said upthread, not all wild mushrooms are poisonous, but that doesn’t mean you’re not an idiot to randomly eat wild mushrooms. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/128 "2009-07-26T01:22:23Z")
[quote=“Diogenes\_the\_Cynic, post:127, topic:504037”] At least we agree that he was completely entitled to dump her. She was more cruel, though, because she did it took a guy who had hung on through a real relationship. She had no relationship with the frat boy. I also think it’s way more heartless to string a guy along as she did, promising him eventual sex, and then telling him he wasn’t as worthy of her virginity as some random slimeball at a frat party./QUOTE] Well, he wasn’t some random slimeball at a party–he was a guy she’d been dating. You make it sound as though she never intended to have sex with the original boyfriend. Maybe she just changed her mind and decided she didn’t want to have sex with him. Is that such a cardinal sin? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/129 "2009-07-26T01:28:35Z")
Well maybe Todd was telling the truth when he said he cared about her and then just changed his mind? Is that a cardinal sin. You can’t have it both ways. Don’t make excuses for one and not the other. And he WAS just a random slimeball at a frat party. Just because he took her to his dorm and fed her ramen doesn’t mean they had a relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/130 "2009-07-26T01:29:54Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Well, he wasn’t some random slimeball at a party–he was a guy she’d been dating. You make it sound as though she never intended to have sex with the original boyfriend. Maybe she just changed her mind and decided she didn’t want to have sex with him. Is that such a cardinal sin? If a woman changes her mind about a guy, she’s a liar and a scumbag. If a guy does it, he hasn’t done all that much wrong. Do try to keep up! ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/131 "2009-07-26T01:31:04Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Well maybe Todd was telling the truth when he said he cared about her and then just changed his mind? Is that a cardinal sin. > > You can’t have it both ways. Don’t make excuses for one and not the other. > > And he WAS just a random slimeball at a frat party. Just because he took her to his dorm and fed her ramen doesn’t mean they had a relationship. So what constitutes a relationship? Six months where they only dine out at expensive restaurants? Anyway, if he did just change his mind, he should have said something. He has the right to do what he did (stop taking her calls) but it definitely makes him an asshole to not actually break up with her. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/132 "2009-07-26T01:39:23Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > If a woman changes her mind about a guy, she’s a liar and a scumbag. If a guy does it, he hasn’t done all that much wrong. Do try to keep up! No, they’re both liars and scumbags, but she was marginally worse, and she’s hypocritical to complain about being on the receving end. Do you think they had an equal right to break their promises, yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/133 "2009-07-26T01:42:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, they’re both liars and scumbags, but she was marginally worse, and she’s hypocritical to complain about being on the receving end. > > Do you think they had an equal right to break their promises, yes or no? The manner in which the promise was broken is the issue. She dumped her HS boyfriend, a right you cannot deny that she had. She had the decency to tell him to his face, give him a clean break, and not insult him afterwards. Todd used her, failed to break up with her at all, then afterwards, implied that she was a slut. I think Todd was a little more than marginally worse. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/134 "2009-07-26T01:44:25Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > So what constitutes a relationship? Six months where they only dine out at expensive restaurants? I don’t know. More than a couple of dates anyway. I don’t have some slide rule. I’d say at least a couple of months. > [@](#): > > Anyway, if he did just change his mind, he should have said something. He has the right to do what he did (stop taking her calls) but it definitely makes him an asshole to not actually break up with her. She said it was a couple of weeks before he stopped taking her calls. She even said he talked to her more that night, and that she was the one who left early, so it wasn’t THAT abrubt. I think the real point is that she was an idiot for expecting anything more oout of a guy who’d already made it pretty clear that all he wanted was sex. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/135 "2009-07-26T01:53:15Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > The manner in which the promise was broken is the issue. She dumped her HS boyfriend, a right you cannot deny that she had. She had the decency to tell him to his face, give him a clean break, and not insult him afterwards. Todd used her, failed to break up with her at all, then afterwards, implied that she was a slut. I think Todd was a little more than marginally worse. How do you know how she broke up with the HS BF? This is all the blog post says about it: > [@](#): > > “I told Chris I would have sex with him once I graduated but when it came down to it, he wasn’t the guy I wanted to lose my virginity to,” explains Kathy. > > Kathy revoked his HymenPass© and set off for her college dorm, where she placed it a small glass case labelled “Break For Chiseled Buns Only.” It doesn’t say how she told him, or even IF she told him, it just says (kind of snidely) that she "revoked his “HymenPass,” (whatever the fuck that is). Don’t invent facts here. We have no evidence that she dumped him face to face, only that she dumped him. You’re grasping at straws here if the best you can do is that he was a chickenshit about how he dumped her. That’s a normal risk of dating. I think she was an idiot to believe him in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/136 "2009-07-26T01:57:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How do you know how she broke up with the HS BF? The exact same way that you know that she was only dating Todd for a few weeks. All the blog post says about it is: “Anyway, Todd and Kathy resumed their “relationship.” They hung out frequently, met for lunch on campus, and often studied together.” Could have been weeks or months. So, you’re free to make assumptions to support your jaundiced view, but then don’t call me out about my assumptions. It seems clear to me that she dumped her HS boyfriend from what was written, and you are grasping at straws if you’re trying to cast doubt on that. Like I said, you can be relied upon to entrench yourself and then contort yourself wildly to prevent any admission that you might not be 100% correct. > [@](#): > > You’re grasping at straws here if the best you can do is that he was a chickenshit about how he dumped her. I think she was an idiot to believe him in the first place. He was chickenshit in how he utterly FAILED to dump her. Then, to imply that she was a slut was also dickish. Do you think it’s OK to behave that way? I don’t. Her idiocy does not in any way mitigate that he was an asshole. You said he didn’t do anything all that wrong. That’s just bullshit. If he didn’t do anything all that wrong, then neither did she. You can’t have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/137 "2009-07-26T02:02:08Z")
I didn’t say she did anything “wrong.” I said she was moron. The worst he did was be a chickenshit about dumping her. Not nice, but not horrifically evil either, also extremely predictable, also not a justification for her to stalk him. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/138 "2009-07-26T02:03:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t say she did anything “wrong.” I said she was moron. The worst he did was be a chickenshit about dumping her. Not nice, but not horrifically evil either, also extremely predictable. You said she was worse than he was, but you’ve failed to prove your case. I have no hope that we will ever agree on this, so, c’est la vie. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/139 "2009-07-27T21:50:59Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > To be fair, Dio, there are some college guys that actually do want relationships. Even drunken frat boys. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Sure. There are also seedy guys at bus stops who really have good weed. Little known fact: same dude. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037.md?page=6)