# Psychologists and psychologist insurers... your opinions. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 23, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510 "2010-05-23T22:30:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/1 "2010-05-23T22:30:27Z")
I have my ex-psychologist on tape telling me all about how she interacted with my friend, also her client (among half a dozen closely related people she was treating simultaneously), the day he attempted suicide. I have her clearly describing for me the way she tried to make a deal with him that she wouldn’t take him to the hospital if he would agree to let her come home with him, among other things. I have her on tape saying something to the effect that her insurance company would have heart failure if it was aware that she “chooses people over rules”. I have 11 hours of tape, all of which she was aware I was making. What is the likelihood of her license being either pulled or at least made provisional, dependent on whatever conditions the board comes up with? By the way, my suicidal friend ultimately did commit suicide. Thanks in large part (totally unprovable, though) to her incompetence. So what do you think? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/2 "2010-05-23T22:39:57Z")
First of all, I’m sorry to hear about your friend’s suicide. But you’re blaming your friend’s suicide on her? It sounds like she’s discussing her patients with one another and that’s a no-no as far as I’m aware. So, uh, good luck with your quest to avenge your friend’s suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/3 "2010-05-23T23:20:51Z")
No avenge… his choice and frankly, at the point he succeeded I believe it was a reasonable choice. He was out of options and life had nothing left to offer him worth hanging out for. It has nothing to do with a desire to harm, it has to do with my very genuine conviction that this therapist is harming more than she’s helping, and because I have audiotape, I’m in an unusually strong position to prove what she’s doing. Usually it’s very hard to demonstrate that a therapist is behaving badly, it comes down to who you believe. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/4 "2010-05-23T23:52:13Z")
Well, if you have tape of her soliciting sex from one of her clients (I’m not sure what ‘she wouldn’t take him to the hospital if he would agree to let her come home with him’ means) you should probably turn it over to whichever licensing board is active in your area. Having sex with clients is pretty well a no-no. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/5 "2010-05-23T23:55:58Z")
Then go for it, **Stoid**. I’m not sure who you’d report it to directly but I’m sure other posters will. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/6 "2010-05-24T00:13:28Z")
**Stoid,** what you’re describing is so wrong. First, unless your friend signed a release form, there’s no way in hell this psychologist should have been sharing this information with you… she shouldn’t even have acknowledged that she was treating your friend. That is a direct violation of HIPPA. Second… and Third… the behavior you describe crosses so many ethical boundaries I’m nearly speechless. You have the power to stop this person, and you should. I’m not a psychologist, but **Sr. Olives** is on his way to becoming one so I asked him what he thought. I read him your post and he replied, ‘‘Uh, that’s pretty bad.’’ He says it’s very likely if you report this that some action will be taken. He recommended you contact the American Psychological Association Ethics Board. I think that information is available on their website. Hopefully someone with experience reporting this sort of thing will pop up. If this lady doesn’t answer for such repeated and gross violations of ethical conduct, bad things may continue to happen to vulnerable people. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/7 "2010-05-24T00:17:41Z")
There’s no ethical dilemma here, report her plain and simple. If she is in the right, she’ll have her name cleared and if she’s wrong she’ll get her license suspended and that’s that. There is a reason for a state license board and this is one of the reasons that it exists. Because a professional person’s competence isn’t up to you a layperson, it’s up to them. Report her and let the state decide whether she is at fault or not. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/8 "2010-05-24T00:44:07Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > No avenge… his choice and frankly, at the point he succeeded I believe it was a reasonable choice. He was out of options and life had nothing left to offer him worth hanging out for. I think your question has been well-answered. This is something that ought to be brought before the licensing board. They can make that decision. I just wanted to comment that this is the first time I’ve heard someone say “well, it was probably a good idea he killed himself” about anyone they didn’t hate. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/9 "2010-05-24T02:34:08Z")
> [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](#): > > I just wanted to comment that this is the first time I’ve heard someone say “well, it was probably a good idea he killed himself” about anyone they didn’t hate. Well, I didn’t quite say that, but close enough. Does it freak you out? I feel that way about both the people I’ve known in my life who committed suicide, both of whom had very similar problems, and who killed themselves the same way. The other one was the first man I ever lived with. They were both hardcore drug addicts and absolutely hopeless compulsive gamblers. They both tried for years to change, both failed. Both just became increasingly miserable. My friend referred to had actually done some real damage to himself the third time he tried, robbing his brain of oxygen and resulting in noticeable deficits. That just sealed the deal. Medication, therapy… none of it worked in the end and his life was very similar to the life of someone dying of a terminal and painful illness. It became a quality of life issue - he wasn’t going to get better, and his life was almost completely without peace or joy. In the same way we (most of us) can let go of someone in physical pain who wants to end it, I could let go of my friend, whose psychic pain was no less acute and life-diminishing. I don’t believe in life at any price. The sad part was that he was unable to change, not that he ended the painful life he was living. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/10 "2010-05-24T02:39:21Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > **Stoid,** what you’re describing is so wrong. First, unless your friend signed a release form, there’s no way in hell this psychologist should have been sharing this information with you… she shouldn’t even have acknowledged that she was treating your friend. That is a direct violation of HIPPA. Second… and Third… the behavior you describe crosses so many ethical boundaries I’m nearly speechless. > > You have the power to stop this person, and you should. > > I’m not a psychologist, but **Sr. Olives** is on his way to becoming one so I asked him what he thought. I read him your post and he replied, ‘‘Uh, that’s pretty bad.’’ He says it’s very likely if you report this that some action will be taken. He recommended you contact the American Psychological Association Ethics Board. I think that information is available on their website. > > Hopefully someone with experience reporting this sort of thing will pop up. If this lady doesn’t answer for such repeated and gross violations of ethical conduct, bad things may continue to happen to vulnerable people. Thanks, I feel pretty much the same way. I was sucked into her narcissistic thing , but she ran a number on me one particular day that actually did leave me speechless, and I never went back. (it involved threatening our relationship as a means of controlling me…insanely fucked up, and I’m plenty knowledgeable enough to have instantly perceived that the person crossing the line in that moment was definitely her. But I still wasn’t quite strong enough to tell my friends about it, and I paid for that decision.) ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/11 "2010-05-24T02:43:23Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > Well, if you have tape of her soliciting sex from one of her clients (I’m not sure what ‘she wouldn’t take him to the hospital if he would agree to let her come home with him’ means) you should probably turn it over to whichever licensing board is active in your area. > > Having sex with clients is pretty well a no-no. No, she was telling him she wouldn’t do what she was obligated to do, which was take him to a hospital, if he would agree to let her come to his home and watch over him there. It didn’t happen like that thanks to us, his friends, who had located him about the same time she did, called the hotel and told them to break down the door. She was pretty pissed off at us for intruding and upset that he thought SHE had sent the hotel people after promising she wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/12 "2010-05-24T02:44:50Z")
Oh, and she also described to me how bummed she was that he didn’t seem very grateful to her for saving his life… she’s a piece of work, I’m not kidding. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/13 "2010-05-24T03:15:11Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > The sad part was that he was unable to change, not that he ended the painful life he was living. Yeah. This is the side of depression nobody wants to talk about. The reality that for some people, it doesn’t get better, and nothing they do makes it better, and often they’re so miserable all they can do is spread the misery to others. It’s hard for me to say that, given how much faith I have in evidence-based treatments for depression. It’s hard for me to say that, knowing that often when people feel they’ve ‘‘tried everything’’ they really haven’t, and that depression by definition is a disorder of irrational thinking and distorted perceptions. But sometimes… suicide is a rational decision. The sad thing is, with your friend, we’ll never know what influence having a rational therapist might have had on his choice to end his life. And I hope you’re doing well, **Stoid** , because it sounds like you’ve suffered directly as a result of this person’s failure to do her job correctly. I’ve never been blatantly mistreated in that way, but I’ve felt betrayed by therapists in the past, mostly for using treatments that haven’t been proven to work when the self-proclaimed experts implied otherwise. Three months with a CBT therapist did more to change my life than 6 years with these ‘‘experts.’’ I spent age 17 to age 23 in abject misery… those were my college years, that was my young adulthood, and I’m never getting it back. Not because I didn’t work hard enough, not because I wasn’t 100% motivated and willing to make any change necessary, but because they failed to give me the tools I needed even when I begged for them. There really aren’t too many things that make me angrier than bad therapists. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/14 "2010-05-31T06:00:16Z")
Well, I heard back from the board of psychology. They are very interested in following up. I pulled up the bad transcription I had done of the sessions and I was blow away again by the things that she said. They were just so wrong on so many levels. This is my therapist talking to me in session about my lifelong friend who has tried to commit suicide and is also her patient: > [@](#): > > You know the worst part of this whole exchange I am listening to [suicidal friend/her patient] berate and insult me after I had saved his life after…. let us say and that 18 hours, \_\_\_\_ and out of that 18 hours I had been with him non stop for 9 hours. After 9 hours of being with him non stop he began deriding me and insulting me and blaming me. And for me the hardest part of the entire experience wasn’t that I was not getting a ticker tape parade. It wasn’t that at all. It was just after all of that there was no gratification. None. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > So I fell asleep for may be an hour and a half, the phone rings and its XXX and he is completely incoherent calling me from the hotel room. He’s pissed as hell that he is awakened. He expected to be dead. …So I stayed on the phone with him from the moment he called me. I have my husband go in the other room, call the babysitter to come and my kids, my husband had to leave and I have a child that is going to be waking up any minute, the baby sitter came. I am on the phone the entire time with him. I got in the car, stayed on the phone the entire time, until he told me where he was. The whole time he was saying if you hang up the phone, if you call the police or you called any of my friends or you call (his girlfriend) by the time they get to me I wont be here. I only talk to you and you must come and get me yourself. So I was going.. > > stoid: We totally fucked it. (because we called the hotel and told them to break in) > > ``` > Yeah because I was saying ‘I swear to you I am not calling the police. My contract with you is that if you will stay with me, I will trust you and I will come and get you myself’. > > ``` > [@](#): > > I have had people call me when they are standing a bridge, I have had people call me when they have got a razor in their hand and they are cutting themselves and thinking about cutting deeper I have had all of those experiences. I have been on the phone with people I have pulled them back from the edge more times than I can count but I have never been in relationship with someone where there is a two way street of trust where I am saying ‘I trust you. I am not calling the police and I am not going to breach your confidentiality because I trust you to keep your word to me, that you will call me before you hurt yourself’ and have the other person say ‘I trust you that you will take care of me if I do you call you and I will call you’. I have never had anyone break that promise. This is the first time it ever happened in all these years. So, I am in new territory. This is why I rarely hospitalize anyone. I don’t believe in it, I don’t think its therapeutic, I don’t like doing it. I would have done anything. I was prepared and I told him that and he can get it anyway, that and I gave him this option yesterday and I was prepared to take him home myself in my car take him to his house and stay there with him overnight. I was prepared to do that to keep him out of the hospital. > [@](#): > > The reason that I decided to go out on a limb and write the letter and talk with everyone individually, is because I often make the choice (probably to my liability insurance people’s horror) I often make the choice to place people above rules. Ya think? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/15 "2010-05-31T12:16:55Z")
Total crap. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/16 "2010-05-31T13:19:00Z")
I actually think putting people above the rules is a good thing. But I think she’s putting her own feelings above the rules, and that’s bad. . And what does she base her opinion that sending people to hospitals is so bad\*? Yeah, I’d try to avoid them if possible, but sometimes 24-hour care is necessary. \*Most are bad for detoxing, but not for general mental health. Heck, the ones I know of will still let the psychiatrist be the main doctor and set up the general treatment plan. How the heck is going to their house a better option? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychologists-and-psychologist-insurers-your-opinions/540510/17 "2010-05-31T18:16:27Z")
I think you should see a real lawyer about this very real problem, and not consult anonymous members of a message board. Closing thread.