# Psychopathy and children; reward and punishment **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 18, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychopathy-and-children-reward-and-punishment/786919 "2017-05-18T14:07:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychopathy-and-children-reward-and-punishment/786919/1 "2017-05-18T14:07:10Z")
Article is here: [When Your Child Is a Psychopath - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/06/when-your-child-is-a-psychopath/524502/) I found it fascinating. The individual stories about child-psychopaths were alternately horrifying and heartbreaking. What I found most intriguing was the idea that these kids’ brains literally _can’t_ respond to punishment – deterrence simply doesn’t work, and _can’t_ work. Whatever part of normal and healthy brains that can associate punishment with the acts that lead to it don’t work for them. But the rewards center works fine. By cutting out any sort of punishment for the children in their care, and only using rewards, one treatment center was able to get incredible statistical results (according to the article) – many, many fewer released patients got into criminal trouble than patients with the same diagnoses in other treatment centers. If this is true, could we use it in a broader way to rehabilitate criminals – especially young criminals? If a large portion of criminals are _born bad_ in the same way that a lot of the kids in the article are born that way, then perhaps rewards, instead of punishment, could lead to long-term changes in behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychopathy-and-children-reward-and-punishment/786919/2 "2017-05-18T14:11:50Z")
Sometimes, when I’m very tired, I wonder if we could, instead, send these kids to an specially appointed island and let them deal with each other. Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk Pro ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychopathy-and-children-reward-and-punishment/786919/3 "2017-05-18T14:27:55Z")
Somewhat interesting but not surprising. Responding to rewards and ignoring punishment describes psychopathy. I suppose punishment just makes the situation worse. Teaching psychopaths how to achieve rewards without harming people is a good idea but what happens in the unfair real world where rewards are not always given where due? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychopathy-and-children-reward-and-punishment/786919/4 "2017-05-18T14:31:03Z")
But yes, a fascinating article. Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk Pro ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychopathy-and-children-reward-and-punishment/786919/5 "2017-05-18T14:32:09Z")
The article mentioned determinism and the hereditary nature of the traits as well. Maybe the genes at some point could be tested for? But with regards to punishment and rewards of those who are psychopaths? Rewards may help train them to some degree. But outside a clinic I don’t see that happening consistently with adults. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychopathy-and-children-reward-and-punishment/786919/6 "2017-05-18T16:51:17Z")
If it works at all … I expect you’d have to get them very young, when they’re still pups. But I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised to learn that some pups do best with a reward-centric approach. It’s worth remembering though, that the man described as a “success” story was in jail for a “minor” domestic event by the end of the article, with a terrified wife, who wants a way out. > [@OP's article](#): > > he night before I’m scheduled to fly to Los Angeles, I receive a frantic email from Carl’s wife. Carl is in police custody. His wife tells me that Carl considers himself polyamorous, and had invited one of his girlfriends over to their apartment. (This woman denies ever being romantically involved with Carl.)\* They were playing with the baby when his wife returned. She was furious, and grabbed their son. Carl responded by pulling her hair, snatching the baby out of her arms, and taking her phone to prevent her from calling the police. She called from a neighbor’s house instead. (Carl says he grabbed the baby to protect him.) Three misdemeanor charges—spousal battery, abandonment and neglect of a child, and intimidation of a witness—and the psychopath who made good is now in jail. > > I go to Los Angeles anyway, in the naive hope that Carl will be released on bail at his hearing the next day. A few minutes before 8:30 a.m., his wife and I meet at the courthouse and begin the long wait. She is 12 years Carl’s junior, a compact woman with long black hair and a weariness that ebbs only when she gazes at her son. She met Carl on OkCupid two years ago while visiting L.A. and—after a romance of just a few months—moved to California to marry him. Now she sits outside the courtroom, one eye on her son, fielding calls from clients of the funeral home and wondering whether she can make bail. > > “I’m so sick of the drama,” she says, as the phone rings again. > > Carl is a tough man to be married to. His wife says he’s funny and charming and a good listener, but he sometimes loses interest in the funeral business, leaving most of the work to her. He brings other women home for sex, even when she’s there. And while he’s never seriously beaten her up, he has slapped her. > > “He would say sorry, but I don’t know if he was upset or not,” she tells me. > > “So you wondered if he felt genuine remorse?” > > “Honestly, I’m at a point where I don’t really care anymore. I just want my son and myself to be safe.” Carl goes on to say that he shouldn’t really have a SO but that he wants to keep his family together. He talks about going to therapeutic domestic anger management type classes. I can’t help wondering if what Carl’s really learned is just how to talk in therapy and court so that they let him get away with shit (like slapping his wife around.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychopathy-and-children-reward-and-punishment/786919/7 "2017-05-18T16:53:15Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > If it works at all … I expect you’d have to get them very young, when they’re still pups. But I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised to learn that some pups do best with a reward-centric approach. > > It’s worth remembering though, that the man described as a “success” story was in jail for a “minor” domestic event by the end of the article, with a terrified wife, who wants a way out. > > Carl goes on to say that he shouldn’t really have a SO but that he wants to keep his family together. > > I can’t help wondering if what Carl’s really learned is just how to talk in therapy and court so that they let him get away with shit (like slapping his wife around.) It’s very possible he’s just learning how to deceive, but the article notes that even if it just turned a would-be-killer into a repeat-misdemeanor offender, that’s a pretty big victory for society. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychopathy-and-children-reward-and-punishment/786919/8 "2017-05-18T16:59:33Z")
We now have about two decades of strong, varied research supporting the idea that rewards are much more effective at changing behavior for all people, including kids, and especially including kids with defiance problems. I dare say that is the mainstream view in child psychology for child behavior management generally. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychopathy-and-children-reward-and-punishment/786919/9 "2017-05-18T17:09:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s very possible he’s just learning how to deceive, but the article notes that even if it just turned a would-be-killer into a repeat-misdemeanor offender, that’s a pretty big victory for society. I guess, if you’re not trapped in a marriage with him. I wouldn’t want him for a dad, either. That said - I don’t actually have any clever ideas, here. Well, I have ideas. I just don’t know if I any good ones. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychopathy-and-children-reward-and-punishment/786919/10 "2017-05-18T17:26:52Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Sometimes, when I’m very tired, I wonder if we could, instead, send these kids to an specially appointed island and let them deal with each other. > **[Lord of the Flies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Flies)** > > Lord of the Flies is the 1954 debut novel of British author William Golding. The plot concerns a group of British boys who are stranded on an uninhabited island and their disastrous attempts to govern themselves. The novel's themes include morality, leadership, and the tension between civility and chaos. > Lord of the Flies was generally well received, and is a popular assigned book in schools. > Published in 1954, Lord of the Flies was Golding's first novel. Golding got the idea for the plot f... ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychopathy-and-children-reward-and-punishment/786919/11 "2017-05-18T17:39:39Z")
Fascinating article shared by the OP. But how does it work when reward often is not there in real life? If a rehabilitated psychopath gets a typical 9-to-5 job, he/she can expect long hours of unpleasant work, maybe a bad boss, maybe bad customers, bad coworkers, less-than-ideal pay, etc. Paying bills, drudgery, tedium, etc. Everyday life doesn’t have much thrill or pleasure to offer on a regular basis. What keeps the psychopath from going deranged again, under those little-to-no reward circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychopathy-and-children-reward-and-punishment/786919/12 "2017-05-18T19:22:03Z")
> **[Dr. Evil’s Sidekick in Austin Powers: Judge Violated My Constitutional Rights...](https://www.ocweekly.com/dr-evils-sidekick-in-austin-powers-judge-violated-my-constitutional-rights-7249490/)** Or, he is learning to game the system to avoid a lengthy prison sentence and now is more likely to kill on the outside. Of course, these personality types also kill other inmates as well. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychopathy-and-children-reward-and-punishment/786919/13 "2017-05-18T19:38:38Z")
Coincidentally, I just read a related Cracked essay this morning: [6 scary realities working with actual psychopaths](http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-2495-6-scary-realities-working-with-actual-psychopaths.html) Interestingly, one of the researchers they interviewed for the article is actually a borderline psychopath.