# PT boats **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 4, 2000, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617 "2000-05-04T23:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/21 "2023-08-13T00:44:48Z")
In They Were Expendable, the PT thought they had racked up a good number of IJN warships, but in reality, no cruisers, etc. Even the in wartime press, they were hyped. > **[They Were Commendable](https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2002/april/they-were-commendable#:~:text=A%20recap%20article%20in%20the,to%20'hit%20and%20run'%20to)** > > To the World War II media, the PT boat was a dashing, mysterious surface warrior, as glorified in the 1945 MGM movie They Were Expendable. The film dramatized the 1942 rescue by Lieutenant John D. Bulkeley’s PT boat squadron of General Douglas... They sank merchant ships, lighters, cargo landing crafter, etc. Lots of those. The USA’s biggest sinking was a 9600 ton attack cargo ship- sadly that was the **USS** _McCawley_ , one of our own, Italian PT boats (their PT boat service was excellent) sank the HMS Eagle, a carrier. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/22 "2023-08-13T01:00:37Z")
HMS Eagle was sunk by a U-boat. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/23 "2023-08-13T01:05:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Italian PT boats (their PT boat service was excellent) sank the HMS Eagle, a carrier. No they didn’t, they never even attacked it. [HMS Eagle (1918) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Eagle_(1918)) > _Eagle_ covered [Operation Pedestal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pedestal) together with the carriers [_Victorious_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victorious_(R38)) and [_Indomitable_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Indomitable_(92)). _Eagle_ carried 16 Sea Hurricanes of 801 and 813 Squadrons as well as four reserve aircraft for the operation.[[73]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Eagle_(1918)#cite_note-73) On the early afternoon of 11 August, _Eagle_ was hit by four torpedoes from the [German submarine _U-73_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-73_(1940)), commanded by [Helmut Rosenbaum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Rosenbaum), and sank within four minutes, 70 nautical miles (130 km; 81 mi) south of [Cape Salinas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Salinas) at position [38°3′0″N 3°1′12″E](https://geohack.toolforge.org/geohack.php?pagename=HMS_Eagle_(1918)¶ms=38_3_0_N_3_1_12_E_type:event). Losses in the sinking included 131 officers and [ratings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_rating), mainly from the ship’s propulsion machinery spaces.[[74]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Eagle_(1918)#cite_note-s9-74) Four Sea Hurricanes from 801 were aloft when the ship was torpedoed, and they landed on other carriers; the remaining sixteen went down with the ship.[[75]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Eagle_(1918)#cite_note-75) The destroyers [_Laforey_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Laforey_(G99)) and [_Lookout_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Lookout_(G32)) and the [tug](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tug) _Jaunty_ rescued 67 officers and 862 sailors. ETA: Ninja’d. The largest warship they damaged (not sunk, damaged) was the Soviet cruiser [Molotov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_cruiser_Molotov). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/24 "2023-08-13T01:08:29Z")
> [@Capn\_Carl](#): > > HMS Eagle was sunk by a U-boat. I am sorry. Really bad cut & paste on my part-_HMS Manchester_ . ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/25 "2023-08-13T01:21:33Z")
They didn’t sink [HMS _Manchester_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Manchester_(15)) either. They damaged her. She scuttled herself, as it turns out unnecessarily which lead to the captain being court-martialed. > By the night of 13/14 August, Force X was passing through the mine-free channel close off the Tunisian coast. At 00:40 the convoy was attacked by a pair of German [S-boats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-boat), but they were driven off, with one boat damaged by British fire. About 20 minutes later _Manchester_ was attacked near [Kelibia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelibia) by a pair of Italian [MS boats](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRDA_60_t_motor_torpedo_boat) ([MTBs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_torpedo_boat)), _MS 16_ and _MS 22_, which each fired one torpedo, one of which struck the cruiser in the aft engine room, despite her efforts to evade the torpedoes, and jamming her [rudder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudder) hard to starboard. The hit killed one officer and nine ratings and knocked out electrical power to the aft end of the ship. She slowed to a stop as both starboard propeller shafts were damaged and flooding of the aft engine room disabled both inner shafts. Only the port outer shaft was operable, but its turbine had temporarily lost steam due to the explosion.[[27]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Manchester_(15)#cite_note-28) > > The flooding quickly caused _Manchester_ to take on an 11-degree list and both the main radio room and the four-inch magazine to fill with water. At about 01:40 Drew ordered “Emergency Stations” which was a standing order when not already at [action stations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_stations) that required all crewmen not required to operate or supply the anti-aircraft guns to proceed to their abandon ship positions. Transferring oil from the starboard fuel tanks to port and jettisoning the starboard torpedoes reduced the list to about 4.5 degrees by 02:45. Drew felt that the ship’s tactical situation was dire due to the threat of other motor torpedo boats as the ship’s working armament was limited to the four-inch guns and the anti-aircraft weapons. He also felt it imperative that she had to reach deep water by the island of [Zembra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zembra) by dawn (05:30) which he estimated would take about three hours of steaming. The initial damage reports included a two- to three-hour estimate of restoring steam power as the extent of the damage had not yet been fully assessed, although that was repaired much more quickly than the initial estimate. Focused on the tactical situation, Drew was unaware that steam had been restored to the port outer turbine, the rudder unjammed and electrical power had been restored to the steering gear at about 02:02 before he decided to abandon ship 45 minutes later. Earlier, the destroyer [_Pathfinder_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Pathfinder_(G10)) had stopped to render assistance at 01:54 and Drew had transferred 172 wounded and superfluous crewmen before she had to depart to rejoin the convoy.[[28]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Manchester_(15)#cite_note-29) > > About 02:30 Drew inquired about the necessary preparations for scuttling by her own crew with explosive charges during a conversation with his [chief engineer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_engineer). About 15 minutes later he addressed the crew informing them of his decision to scuttle the cruiser and to prepare to abandon ship. The order to scuttle was given at 02:50 and it was impossible to rescind when the chief engineer informed him that power had been restored to one turbine and the steering gear five minutes later. _Manchester_ finally sank at 06:47. Drew ordered his crew to abandon ship at 03:45; one man drowned as he attempted to swim ashore, but the rest of his men survived. Most made it ashore, but an estimated 60 to 90 men were rescued by the destroyers [_Somali_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Somali_(F33)) and [_Eskimo_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Eskimo_(F75)) when they were dispatched at 07:13 to render assistance to the cruiser after _Pathfinder_ met up the rest of the 10th CS. Two other men were rescued by an Italian MTB, but they were ultimately turned over to the French and joined the rest of the crew in the [Laghouat prison camp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laghouat_prison_camp).[[29]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Manchester_(15)#cite_note-30) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/26 "2023-08-13T01:26:08Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > They didn’t sink [HMS _Manchester_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Manchester_(15)) either. They damaged her. She scuttled herself, as it turns out unnecessarily which lead to the captain being court-martialed. They Torpedoed her, she sank. Their torps led directly to the ship going under, Anything else is pettifogging . And it is still down there, under 80 meters of blue water. Lots of kills are like that. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/27 "2023-08-13T01:33:26Z")
No, the scuttling charges led directly to the ship going under, which is why Captain Harold Drew was cashiered, dismissed of his command, and prohibited from further command at sea, and 4 other officers and a petty officer were disciplined. The ship as it turns out was recoverable and not in any further danger. By your logic, the _Graf Spee_ was sunk by HMS _Ajax_, _Exeter_ and _Achilles_ at the Battle of River Platte. No, it wasn’t, it was damaged at the battle of River Platte and later scuttled unnecessarily by its captain. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/28 "2023-08-13T01:44:35Z")
The USN torpedos of the day were shite. Had they been better the PTs might have been more effective against larger IJN warships. When I was a kid growing up in 1960s Newport Beach CA there was one WW-II PT boat kept afloat at a dock in Newport Harbor that some fat cat had bought from war surplus. The weapons were removed of course, but the rest of the boat was original. Sort of a 1940s version of the later cigarette boats. I wonder what ever happened to it? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/29 "2023-08-13T02:25:54Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > By your logic, the _Graf Spee_ was sunk by HMS _Ajax_, _Exeter_ and _Achilles_ at the Battle of River Platte. No, it wasn’t, it was damaged at the battle of River Platte and later scuttled unnecessarily by its captain. I certainly do think _Graf Spee_ was sunk by the opposing RN forces collectively. The fact that it was an information warfare/psychological operations campaign that did the deed instead of a kinetic attack is irrelevant IMHO. To the extent those ships were involved in that effort, they did indeed sink it, by inducing the commanding officer to make a mistake which resulted in the ship’s loss, as intended/desired by the RN. Inducing an opposing commander to make a mistake is no less a part of war than the exchange of gunfire, and credit for such mistakes ought, IMHO, to go to the commander inducing the mistake just as surely as a commander’s ship scoring a lucky hit on the enemy _a la Bismark_ vs. _Hood_. In fact, inducing the commanding officer specifically (and not just the vessel as some whole unit) to make a mistake is something that the USN still emphasizes in anti-submarine warfare when dealing with diesel subs (which tend to have smaller crews and a shallower bench of talent, putting a great deal of strain on the commanding officer individually when trying to evade antisubmarine forces). Exhaust the commanding officer, get them to make a mistake, and exploit that mistake to send them and their vessel to the bottom when they do. Extrapolating that to _Graf Spee_ and _Manchester_, that the commanding officer’s error manifests in an unnecessary scuttling is perhaps an extraordinary error, but hardly unforced and, again, no less due to enemy action than a direct hit on a magazine bringing about a catastrophic failure. ETA: I am now vaguely recalling a line attributed, I believe, to a Japanese admiral: war is a series of blunders. He who blunders least, wins. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/30 "2023-08-13T02:53:06Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I certainly do think _Graf Spee_ was sunk by the opposing RN forces collectively. The fact that it was an information warfare/psychological operations campaign that did the deed instead of a kinetic attack is irrelevant IMHO. To the extent those ships were involved in that effort, they did indeed sink it, by inducing the commanding officer to make a mistake which resulted in the ship’s loss, as intended/desired by the RN. I agree, the RN collectively indeed did sink the _Graf Spee_, they convinced Captain Langsdorff that a superior British fleet including battlecruisers and aircraft carriers were waiting for him when he was forced to sail from Montevideo harbor after 72 hours by broadcasting as much on frequencies known to be monitored by the Germans when the closest units that could threaten _Graf Spee_ were still 2,500nm away. It would be disingenuous to simply claim that the 8" and 6" shells from the British and New Zealand ships “led directly to her going under,” which is what @DrDeth has stated with regards to the Italian torpedo (singular, not torps plural as he claimed as well) and _Manchester_. The Commonwealth shells damaged _Graf Spee_, and RN disinformation led Langsdorff to believe he would face an unwinnable battle when he emerged from Montevideo, leading him to decide to scuttle her. Leaving that extra and rather important piece of information out of the story makes a statement that the 8" and 6" shells sank the _Graf Spee_ as erroneous as the statement that the torpedo (singular) from an Italian MS boat sank the _Manchester_ while omitting the extra and rather important bit of information that she was scuttled, as it turns out unnecessarily. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/31 "2023-08-13T03:53:24Z")
Another reason for the wooden construction was that there were numerous small boatyards available who were experienced in wooden construction for small fishing vessels, pleasure craft, etc. These would not be able to build metal-hulled vessels, but were a good resource for PT boats and other small craft. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/32 "2023-08-13T04:00:42Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > When I was a kid growing up in 1960s Newport Beach CA there was one WW-II PT boat kept afloat at a dock in Newport Harbor that some fat cat had bought from war surplus… I wonder what ever happened to it? According to [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_boat#Surviving_boats), there are 12 surviving boats. The boat that portrayed PT-73 in _McHale’s Navy_ was a British-designed Vosper MTB that was built in the U.S. for export to the Soviet Union. (I don’t know if it ever made it there.) It was docked in Santa Barbara, and was wrecked in a storm. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/33 "2023-08-13T11:56:13Z")
The boat I saw was contemporaneous to the making of McHale’s Navy. So not it. When Universal Studios first started offering tours of what was then a real production studio, not a theme park, we went. I was 8 or 10 or something. McHale’s set and a boat at a dock in a lake were part of the tour. Was that a real PT or a non-working mockup? I don’t recall. By then the show had ceased production, but only recently. For sure they re-used the same footage of PT-73, McHale, and his pirates underway at sea in lots of episodes. But at least once they have to have taken a PT or PT look-alike out to sea off SoCal to do that filming. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2023, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/34 "2023-08-13T12:05:48Z")
Last time I saw one in use in the water was 32 years ago. It had been a fishing boat at that point since the 50s. But I understand the framing started breaking down and he had to give it up sometime in the 90s. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2023, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/35 "2023-08-14T18:30:08Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I certainly do think _Graf Spee_ was sunk by the opposing RN forces collectively. The fact that it was an information warfare/psychological operations campaign that did the deed instead of a kinetic attack is irrelevant IMHO. To the extent those ships were involved in that effort, they did indeed sink it, by inducing the commanding officer to make a mistake which resulted in the ship’s loss, as intended/desired by the RN. Yes. By his logic, the USN did not sink the IJN Kaga, the IJN did. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2023, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/36 "2023-08-30T20:50:58Z")
Failing to mention that _Kaga_ (or _Bismarck_, or _Hornet_, for that matter) was scuttled isn’t much of an oversight. She was probably sinking and was certainly a constructive loss. The _Manchester_ case is a bit different. A single smallish torpedo doesn’t sufficiently explain the loss of a 9500 ton cruiser. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/37 "2023-08-31T20:39:14Z")
> [@Capn\_Carl](#): > > A single smallish torpedo doesn’t sufficiently explain the loss of a 9500 ton cruiser. Battleships have been sunk with one mine or torp. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/38 "2023-08-31T22:18:38Z")
Very rarely. Possibly only once. I’m having trouble recalling a BB that went down to a single mine or Torp. I’m almost certain no single mine sank a Battleship. A lucky torpedo hit got one, the **Fuso**. As a counterpoint, the Yamato took 10 Torps to sink. Unless you are counting Cruisers as BBs. If so, you shouldn’t, Battleship means something specific. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/39 "2023-08-31T23:02:45Z")
Some eyewitnesses, and a survivor, describe 2 hits on _Fuso._ ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2023, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617/40 "2023-08-31T23:32:23Z")
Not quite off the top of my head, but _HMS Audacious_ was lost after striking a single mine early in WWI. It was relatively modern for the time (actually, it was one of the newest, having only been completed in 1913), as contrasted against the (I believe) mostly obsolete battleships the British lost in the Dardanelles later in the war. Not sure if there are examples from WWII. I was originally thinking _HMS Barham_ might fit the bill, but it was in fact hit by three torpedoes almost simultaneously before capsizing and suffering a catastrophic explosion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pt-boats/18617.md?page=3)