# Public\* bathrooms (i.e. toilets, restrooms, lavatories) before sewer pipes and flush toilets **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 23, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674 "2013-06-23T01:32:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/1 "2013-06-23T01:32:38Z")
Let’s say I am a delegate to the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia in 1787. Or, imagine that I am a member of the British Parliament feasting on the oratory of Disraeli almost one hundred years later. Imagine further, though, that as much as I long to hear Franklin’s peroration or Gladstone’s repartee, I really need to use “the facilities”. Now. And therein lies my questions: _were_ there “facilities” available? What were they like? Would I need to go outside? Was there a room with a slew of chamberpots lined up and ready for use? Or maybe there was an arrangement like [this](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pg8JUbw5_7M/UTD_4vGXKSI/AAAAAAAAAHU/AzrbaBuU55o/s1600/coffeeloo.jpg), presumably with a bucket or barrel under each seat. So, I ask, what were public bathrooms\* like before the era of sewer pipes? Did they even exist? Thanks! \*let’s assume we’re talking the educated, cultured public (such as would be the Philadelphia Convention delegates or a British MP). I assume that bathrooms for _hoi polloi_, say at the local pub, are a whole different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/2 "2013-06-23T01:43:09Z")
I believe they were called “[outhouses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outhouse).” ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/3 "2013-06-23T02:06:08Z")
But that’s my point - were there facilities _inside_ the building, and what were they like. I find it hard to believe that a geriatric Ben Franklin was supposed to amble off whenever he had to pyff. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/4 "2013-06-23T02:17:59Z")
The Ancient Romans actually _did_ have flush toilets of a sort. You know all those fountains and plumbing they had? They used the same techniques to run water through channels (usually intermittently, but potentially continuously). Said channels had seats above them. While they did have men’s and woman’s facilities, within those facilities there were no dividers between seats so you really did do your business in public. Some private homes had similar arrangements, although with typically fewer seats than the true public toilets you’d find at, say, a public bath. [Picture of actual Ancient Roman toilets (in ruins now, of course)](http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt282/TinaTheVA/OstiaToilets-CarolineLawrence.jpg) So, really, flush toilets go back a loooong ways. Absent flush toilets, you have pots/other vessels, pits, or designated areas of the village and/or outside the campsite. Some castles have seats located so that human waste goes down the outside of the walls (perhaps into the moat, perhaps not). Other castles just have pits built into the walls which would eventually need to be emptied. By and large, prior to flush toilets locating toilets _inside_ living areas tended to be avoided, although chamber pots were common household items for millenia all over the world. Of course, chamber pots can be taken outside and emptied. ETA: yes, the “generic Ben Franklin” really was expected to “amble off” to do his business in the outhouse. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/5 "2013-06-23T02:55:12Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > …[Picture of actual Ancient Roman toilets (in ruins now, of course)](http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt282/TinaTheVA/OstiaToilets-CarolineLawrence.jpg)… In case anyone’s wondering about those round holes in the front of the toilets; Romans cleaned themselves with wet sponges attached to sticks. At the public toilets you rented one from the attendant. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/6 "2013-06-23T04:25:22Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > In case anyone’s wondering about those round holes in the front of the toilets; Romans cleaned themselves with wet sponges attached to sticks. At the public toilets you rented one from the attendant. I still don’t understand. What was the purpose of the holes wrt the sponges? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/7 "2013-06-23T05:36:50Z")
Getting the right angle to sponge off your starfish. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/8 "2013-06-23T07:52:46Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Or, imagine that I am a member of the British Parliament feasting on the oratory of Disraeli almost one hundred years later. Of course, in Disraeli’s day the Palace of Westminster was pretty much new and so had modern toilets. (At least for men.) Indeed, by then one of Sir Joseph Bazalgette’s main sewers ran directly under the building. What may seem rather more surprising is that in the old, pre-1834 Palace, the House of Commons had had since the sixteenth century its own ‘bog house’, located on the south side of the Lobby. IIRC they had even at an early date installed a tank on the roof to collect rainwater for flushing. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/9 "2013-06-23T12:47:59Z")
Today in areas without running water, there are usually public outhouses. The actual apparatus (seat? hole in the ground? open to the sky? enclosed?) will vary on whatever is locally preferred, but generally it will resemble the same setup as a residential area. If they are truly public (as in not tied to a restaurant or something), they will generally be attended and require a small fee, for which you will get toilet paper or water for cleaning. A well-maintained latrine with proper venting and a cover doesn’t have to be that gross, and can often be located just behind a building. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/10 "2013-06-23T13:54:08Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > pyff The [long s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s) - which you’re representing with an **f** - is never used at the end of a word. In the word piss, it _could_ be written as “pifs” but _never_ as “piff” (or “pyff”). ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/11 "2013-06-24T12:31:45Z")
In the Bay of Skaill, on Mainland, the Orkney Islands, Scotland, are the remains of a Neolithic settlement that had toilets with running water. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/12 "2013-06-24T12:35:16Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I still don’t understand. What was the purpose of the holes wrt the sponges? It’s where you put the three seashells. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/13 "2013-06-24T13:48:24Z")
Those Roman toilets survived even in the 20th century: [Billy Connolly - Shipyards Toilet Tale - YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0c7MJy3FT8) ---
**Author:** ![GythaOgg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@GythaOgg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GythaOgg)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/14 "2013-06-24T15:23:49Z")
Henry VIII had some fairly advanced (for the time) plumbing in some of his palaces. He actually built a public bathroom for the court - his ‘Great House of Easement’ - at Hampton Court Palace. It had 28 seats and drained through sewer pipes into the Thames. [Great House of Easement](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/historians-recreate-henry-viiis-velvet-world-of-lavatorial-luxury-1590363.html) According to historian Alison Weir in ‘Henry VII, the King and His Court’, most of his palaces also had running water in many areas, though not typically bathrooms as we know them. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/15 "2013-06-24T16:51:00Z")
I think I recall seeing a colonial brick outhouse next to Independence Hall in Philadelphia still in existence. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/16 "2013-06-24T17:05:16Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > I think I recall seeing a colonial brick outhouse next to Independence Hall in Philadelphia still in existence. How was it built? 😃 I remember an old British film (IIRC, the basis for “All In The Family” original British series) that featured the old working-class townhouses, and even during WWII they still had outhouses in the back yard, in loo of indoor plumbing. (I assume those got emptied out regularly - now there’s a job!) Also saw a row of public toilet stalls in the great outdoors at the entrance to a monastery just outside Lhasa. A small mountain stream ran across the setup, along an open concrete trough traversing across each stall. You could squat and leave your load for the water to wash away. Presumably the upstream stalls were the best of a bad situation. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/17 "2013-06-24T17:31:43Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I remember an old British film (IIRC, the basis for “All In The Family” original British series) that featured the old working-class townhouses, and even during WWII they still had outhouses in the back yard, in loo of indoor plumbing. (I assume those got emptied out regularly - now there’s a job!) When I met my spouse he was living in a part of the South Side of Chicago where the remnants of such a system were still present and visible. The outhouses were on top of cesspits which yes, did need regular cleaning. The “soil” was then sold as farm fertilizer. A nasty job for sure. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/18 "2013-06-24T17:34:16Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > … even during WWII they still had outhouses in the back yard, **in loo of** indoor plumbing… Typo? Deliberate funny? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/19 "2013-06-24T17:39:28Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > The [long s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s) - which you’re representing with an **f** - is never used at the end of a word. In the word piss, it _could_ be written as “pifs” but _never_ as “piff” (or “pyff”). Thank you - ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674/20 "2013-06-24T18:44:54Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > When I met my spouse he was living in a part of the South Side of Chicago where the remnants of such a system were still present and visible. The outhouses were on top of cesspits which yes, did need regular cleaning. The “soil” was then sold as farm fertilizer. A nasty job for sure. [Night soil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil)… the job was done at night so as not to disturb the general populace. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-bathrooms-i-e-toilets-restrooms-lavatories-before-sewer-pipes-and-flush-toilets/661674.md?page=2)