# Public Education woes... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 29, 2003, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084 "2003-03-29T21:48:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrBoy1967](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@MrBoy1967](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrBoy1967)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/41 "2003-04-01T08:09:29Z")
Amen, 007, you’re dead on. Fundamentals, then fun. And a nice one, Yumanite (zenophobe/xenophobe). From reading this string, you’d think Pink Floyd was right “We don’t need no education…” All 4 of my grandparents and my mother were teachers. I have several friends in the profession myself. I have attended both public and private schools. I’m also one of those guys with alphabet soup behind his last name. I love it when people say that our teachers are paid enough, or that we spend enough on our school system. They obviously haven’t seen people on a $25K salary spending hundreds on school supplies for their students because the school district hasn’t. They haven’t been to school in a hot southern classroom with no AC and tiny windows while trying to learn trig without passing out. They haven’t had to use history books that still talk about MAYBE landing on the moon or the democratic government in Cuba. One of the best indicators of how well a country weathers hard economic times, whether due to market downturns or hyperinflation or war, is how well educated their populace is. If you really, really want to live in a country without a mandatory educational system, try living in Somalia. As for Los Illegals, they pay the taxes that usually fund schools-sales and property taxes. Don’t believe that last one because all of “those people” live in appartments? Check out what the components of your rent are. In most states, even renters pay some kind of property tax. So, yes, they have earned the right to get cheaper education-they paid for it like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/42 "2003-04-01T08:43:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hermann Cheruscan \* > \*\*3 kids in Kalifornia government schools. \*\* Could anyone help me out here and tell me why Hermann keeps saying Kalifornia? Big Brad Pitt fan? Or David duchovny? Yours Konfused of Skotland. ---
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/43 "2003-04-01T12:09:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat \* > \*\*Could anyone help me out here and tell me why Hermann keeps saying Kalifornia? > > Big Brad Pitt fan? Or David duchovny? > > Yours > > Konfused of Skotland. \*\* Perhaps it’s for the same reason he can’t spell xenophobe? SpazCat who is crossing Cali and Illinois off her list of places where she might try out that reciprocal license agreement, realizing that maybe NC isn’t that bad after all. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/44 "2003-04-01T12:17:51Z")
**Herman** is trying to paint liberals as communists. (_Amerika_, anyone?) He’s already tried to blame all of California’s woes on the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/45 "2003-04-01T12:19:07Z")
Or maybe you knew that already. :o ::_self-woosh_:: ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/46 "2003-04-01T12:43:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by shep proudfoot \* > > This is my opinion on how to fix Public Education. Abolish it altogether. Whoo boy… here we go. > [@](#): > > Require that every parent pay for school, a school of their choice. Abolish compulsory attendence laws. A big problem that bloats and eats away at a public district school budget is security, and babysitting people who don’t wish to be there in the first place. Let them drop out. Someone has to work at McDonalds. I don’t think I have ever read anything as condesending and ignorant of the real world. I hope you are happy sitting there in your ivory tower, happy to have the finances behind you to make statements like that. All those people who came through public schools, from poor backgrounds, none of these deserve the best oppertunity for an education purely because their parents couldnt afford it? > [@](#): > > It is unfair for teachers to have to put up with gang members and malcontenets just because they “deserve an education”. This is a reason schools are broke. No, they are broke because there is not enough public money put into education, and what little is put in is mismanaged. I’m not an american citizen but it would seem that this is a problem in most countries with public schooling. > [@](#): > > Schools would be in competition with each other, so your teachers are going to work that much harder that their clients have top scores, and their clients get to go to colleges and Universities. What about the pupils who will never excel? Those who try hard but will never go on to college? Should schools be punished for taking on kids who are good but not college material? > [@](#): > > The schools would have the power to expel any student that fails to meet standards in scholastics or discipline. ah yes, exclusion of those who “don’t deserve an education”. Every child deserves an education, but it is up to them what they do with it. If they fail to grasp it, then that is their fault, but that is not remedied by not having the oppertunity available in the first place. > [@](#): > > Sounds like BS? Look at your public schools versus private schools. Which is nicer? Who offers a better education? Which is safer? How can parents afford this…? So how exactly is a family earning $50,000 a year supposed to pay for their kids education, health, housing, food, entertainment, etc etc etc ? [quote] By reforming a government out of control, by doing away with the IRS, giving communities local control, doing away with 95% of governemt wasteful spending (such as the Public School system and the Department of Education). Without an IRS, a Social Security, and Income tax (they will be illegal constitutionally), a parent would have plenty of money to invest in a student’s education. [quote] What makes you think that all parents are going to spend the money to send them to the best schools available? Why not just send them to the cheap school and save money! > [@](#): > > There is NO EXCUSE that one of the wealthiest places on Earth (Calif.) cannot provide for its citizens. and who has the money? what is the % of the population has the the money? is it evenly spread out amongst the populace? under a libertarian system everyone suddenly becomes rich? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/47 "2003-04-01T13:06:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*No, they are broke because there is not enough public money put into education, and what little is put in is mismanaged. \*\* Sometimes, it’s a lot that is mismanaged. The Los Angeles Unified School Disctrict (LAUSD) has a 8 billion dollar year budget. Still we have underpaid teachers, overcrowded classrooms, campus’s in dismal states…and very well paid administators, lawyers and consultants. Add to that the boondoggle of the imfamous "Belmont Learning Center’, which has already cost 10 times it’s origainal budget before being shutdown because it’s a) enviromenatlly unsafe and b) sitting directly over a fault line… Greed, corruption, and old-fashioned incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/48 "2003-04-01T13:30:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Angel of the Lord \* > \*\*Almost all extracurriculars are going to be cut, more than likely, as well as the Academies (with the possible exception of the one I graduated from, as there are no _added_ costs to the program). I’m watching the district that I grew up in get worse and worse. With all the students that are coming in, we need a bigger budget–instead, we have debt. Things look REALLY bad, and no one’s going after the guy who used to be in charge of the district. And it’s quite possible that the needed referendum won’t pass. > > \*\* **AotL** - cuts are being made to a lot of extracurriculars, but the current superintendent has made sure that “no program is decimated” - in other words, they’re cutting a little bit from everywhere in the hope that they’ll still be able to maintain all the programs. The Academies are actually being cut a lot less than some programs, because money dedicated for gifted ed CAN’T be used elsewhere (much like the surplus of construction funds the district is using to build the new high school they won’t be able to open.) The “guy who used to be in charge” may yet have to face the music in this district. We’re getting a lot more info on him. So as not to completely hijack this thread with specific issues in this district: **Angel of the Lord** - email me. I have some info about stuff we’re doing to help that you may be interested in. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/49 "2003-04-01T13:32:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\ ***Herman** is trying to paint liberals as communists. (_Amerika_, anyone?) He’s already tried to blame all of California’s woes on the Democrats. \*\* Please tell me your kidding. He can’t be that sad, can he? Is that really what the Amerika and Kalifornia thing is trying to imply? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/50 "2003-04-01T19:23:13Z")
**Gary** , I believe so. Of course, all they end up doing is painting themselves as John Birch type conspiracy theorists. The No Child Left Behind-the problem is, then instead of educating kids, you have teachers teaching them how to pass the test. MORE time away from education. The problem is, we, in our society, do not value education as we should. We seem more concerned about sports and such than academics. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/51 "2003-04-02T01:51:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*SNIP > > Greed, corruption, and old-fashioned incompetence. \*\* * * * Hey, I know those three…They’re a law firm. No, wait–they’re administrators. Despite their constant poor-mouthing, they can always find money for a new statue, fountain, building, sign, or raise (for themselves). ---
**Author:** ![Manatee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/50afbb/32.png) [@Manatee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manatee)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/52 "2003-04-02T02:03:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vivalostwages \* > \*\*-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Hey, I know those three…They’re a law firm. No, wait–they’re administrators. Despite their constant poor-mouthing, they can always find money for a new statue, fountain, building, sign, or raise (for themselves). \*\* Once again, **Viva** , I continue to be your SDMB twin (or are you mine?). I was thinking this exact thing just today, when I went to go pick up my check from a school that cut me for this quarter and noticed that yet again all of the flower beds had been torn up and replanted. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/53 "2003-04-02T02:10:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Manatee \* > \*\*Once again, **Viva** , I continue to be your SDMB twin (or are you mine?). I was thinking this exact thing just today, when I went to go pick up my check from a school that cut me for this quarter and noticed that yet again all of the flower beds had been torn up and replanted. \*\* * * * It’s one sick cosmos **Manatee** …Campus #1 has just gone to great lengths to put in a bunch of _citrus_ trees, while the summer and fall schedules go to hell. I feel like tearing up all those trees myself. And while I’m at it, I’m gonna rip up the golf driving range and put in some extra classrooms…I can dream, can’t I? [yet another in a series of long sighs…] ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Purl_McKnittington)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/54 "2003-04-02T05:52:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hermann Cheruscan \* > \*\*Great! Since the government school teachers do such a crappy job, on average, they should have their pay cut. > > What do you mean government school teachers do such a crappy job on average? I’m from Wisconsin, and I’m really proud that our public school system is one of the best in the nation. I’ve never had a teacher that I didn’t learn something from. And there are of course, good teachers and bad teachers. You can’t judge an entire library by a single book. Doing that would be like basing your perception of the world on People Magazine. > > Wasnt’ that the law which was wrote by Ted Kennedy? And why is the Fed Gov spending any money on education anyway, since it’s certainly not Constitutional. \*\* Um, how is the federal government spending money on public schools unconstitutional? I mean, state government gets money from the federal government, which, unless tagged under a specific law, they can spend anywhere they want. If they choose to spend on education, so be it. Additionally, if I remember from government class correctly, there aren’t laws governing HOW the government spends their money, it’s all at the discretion of the officials that we elect. The only thing that Constitution does is give the government the right TO spend the money. Sarah ---
**Author:** ![shep\_proudfoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90db22/32.png) [@shep\_proudfoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shep_proudfoot)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/55 "2003-04-05T13:30:58Z")
I have heard the arguments made on this board. The problem is that many people who disagree are teachers. Public school teachers are state employees. They are union members. Teachers do not want a competitive school system, because it will make them work that much harder. Their unions do not want them, because under a privatized system, the poor teachers would be removed, thus lessening their roles and influence. Teachers support high taxes and big government. School is not a sacred cow. Not everyone has a fundamental right to a desk in the classroom. If a student is a menace, a gang member, a disturbed person, or someone just plain assed stupid (known as mentally disabled), they should not be there. If schools were privatized and in competition, these students would be pushed out. Like I said, there will always be criminals, and there is always fast food and retail. I am an American. I believe that most Americans are sick and tired of paying 30-40 percent of our wages for taxes. I do not want to spend my money sending someone else’s kid through school. Every parent should be responsible financially for the children that they have. Many parents choose not to send their children to the government school. They are either home schooled, go to private schools and academies or their church schools them. Yet, these parents have to pay into the public system. Parents have been sick and tired of their schools being less of places of learning than that of “social engineering” and PC pursuits. Bussing, gay and lesbian clubs, humanism, and forced diversity has lessened the quality of the classroom. Poor parents with deserving children will be able to go to the public school. Why? By doing away with government restrictions and most taxation. By installing a fixed federal sales tax. Have the institution of learning be a “non profit” or “not for profit” school. Profits will be thrown into a scholarship fund, given to students based on ability. Simple huh? Those who say that it isn’t are these liberal union member teachers who care nothing for your children, but for their own tenure. Lastly, I agree with the Englishman about the “activity fees” to go to college. I never used any of these fees except to go to a couple of on campus football games. I knew students who had to work to go through school. They weren’t using the "benefit’ of the activity fee. Thus is true with public education, it is not about education, it is a big activity fee. Did Bill Clinton send Chelsea to public school? Never. Did GW Bush send his daughters there, I don’t think so. Why? Because public school is inadequate. It should be changed. > **[Home](https://www.lp.org)** > > https://www.lp.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/LP-Vaccine-Mandate-Ad-v3-1.mp4Take aStand forHealthcare FreedomToday! Donate Now Take a Stand Against Government MandatesDonate Today Previous Next Previous Next Together, we are the Libertarian... ---
**Author:** ![whiterabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@whiterabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiterabbit)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/56 "2003-04-05T15:11:58Z")
**Shep** , that was one of the most selfish things I’ve ever read. Good Lord, why don’t you just go pack up and go live out in Idaho in the middle of nowhere and leave us the fuck alone. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/57 "2003-04-05T16:06:02Z")
I’ve said this before and I will say it again - over and over and over, as needed. There are parents and teachers who are committed to education, who believe that we CAN make a difference in the quality our children’s education. If you have kids in the public school system and you think your job is done because you paid your taxes and got your kids to the door, you deserve what you get. I realize that not every parent is able to get more involved in the school day - single parents, two-job families, parents who have language barriers and so on. But. Your child’s education is ultimately your responsibility, and if you can’t get more involved, be grateful that people who can do so are doing so - and there are ways you CAN be involved that will help. You can educate yourself on issues and VOTE, for starters. (During our recent school board election and referendum request, less than 30% of registered voters made it to the polls. Be assured that MANY of the people who could have voted and didn’t are plenty vocal when the bitching starts.) While there is some merit to the opinion that schools spend too much time being social service agencies and not enough time being academic institutions, I’d like to point out that if public schools didn’t HAVE to pick up the slack socially, they wouldn’t. Federal and state mandates force us to parent children whose own parents can’t or won’t (and I won’t even get into how woefully underfunded some of those mandates are.) Teachers’ unions are certainly an issue as well. It’s true that tenure policies and employment contracts make things more difficult in terms of school reform. That’s one area that is going to have to be looked at very closely - but even so, most teachers are not overpaid, and they endure a hell of a lot of scrutiny in trying to do their jobs. You make comparisons to private sector jobs, and I point out that there are COUNTLESS Pit threads here complaining about people in the private sector. Don’t hold teachers to a higher standard than you would anyone else… _ **unless you think what they do is a lot more important than a private sector job.** _ And if THAT is the case, quit bitching about how “cushy” their job is. ---
**Author:** ![Simbelmyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Simbelmyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simbelmyne)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/58 "2003-04-05T18:54:04Z")
\>School is not a sacred cow. Not everyone has a fundamental right to a desk in the classroom. If a student is a menace, a gang member, a disturbed person, or someone just plain assed stupid (known as mentally disabled), they should not be there. If schools were privatized and in competition, these students would be pushed out. Like I said, there will always be criminals, and there is always fast food and retail. Parents have been sick and tired of their schools being less of places of learning than that of “social engineering” and PC pursuits. Bussing, gay and lesbian clubs, humanism, and forced diversity has lessened the quality of the classroom.\< Why would anyone make a case for allowing violent, dangerous, or abusive students to disrupt the education of the good students? Their problems, at home or anywhere else, are a seperate issue. The should be a zero-tolerance policy toward violent students. If they can’t behave like civilized human beings toward their fellow students, fuck them and their future. What they do once they are expelled is not the problem of public education. An education would give them a chance at a better life, but if they choose to throw it away, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/59 "2003-04-05T19:01:36Z")
And people wonder why Americans have such a bad rep. :rolleyes: (Note-I’m an American, and I don’t think we have a bad nation at all. Just a couple of really loud morons scaring everyone else) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084/60 "2003-04-05T19:19:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Teacher benefits account for an ADDITIONAL 16% of our yearly budget. And that’s just too damn much. It’s the equivalent of 50% more salary! I can’t think of one private sector job that offers benefits that good. I have no idea whether your teachers’ benefits, specifically, are better or worse than the typical salary worker in your neighborhood, however, having watched over several payroll/benefit systems and quite a few general ledgers, I will note that for most American financial or manufacturing corporations, benefits to employees add roughly 50% to corporate expenses. So if your teacher expenses are 2/3 salary and 1/3 benefits, that is right in line with corporate America. Why would you think they deserve _less_ than prevailing wages and benefits? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-education-woes/165084.md?page=4)