# Public employees fired for expressing beliefs―U of Toledo Case
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 17, 2008, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695 "2008-05-17T23:20:21Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2008, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/1 "2008-05-17T23:20:21Z")
Crystal Dixon was recently fired from her job at the public University of Toledo. She was fired for writing a column for Toledo Free Press in which she made some distasteful and ignorant comments about homosexuals. (She also made comments about the benefits disparity at the University of Toledo, but this does not appear to have anything to do with her being fired.)
The university has said:
> [@UT spokesman Matt Lockwood](#):
>
> Her views drew into question her ability to be inclusive and caused the university to conclude that she is unable to continue to function in her role.
According to WTOL, OH, the university also claims that certain jobs at UT come with restrictions on what employees are allowed to express.
Now, this column that she wrote was not part of her job. She was writing on her own. After reading the letter, I cannot see how a person reading it could conclude she was speaking on behalf of the university. So, this is just a woman expressing an opinion.
If this was a private employer, I would have no problem with her being fired. I do, however, have a problem with the government selecting which views are appropriate for a person to be able to express (regardless of how distasteful I find those opinions).
What do you think? Should she have been fired? If there any legal experts, was this firing legal?
The text of the letter:
> **[Toledo Free Press](https://toledofreepress.com/?id=7609)**
WTOL article:
[http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=8328001&nav=menu34\_1](http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=8328001&nav=menu34_1)
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### Author:  [@ReuvenB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReuvenB)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/2 "2008-05-18T01:06:43Z")
On the one hand, she sounds like a flaming nutbar. On the other hand, she’s entitled to her opinion, just like everyone else. On the other other hand, the WTOL article says her job was an HR administrator. If I was gay, and I knew my boss was that biased against people like me, I would feel I was in a hostile environment, even if she wasn’t speaking on behalf of UT. It’s a tough issue all around.
I’d have to come down on the side of UT. She spoke out in a public forum about an issue that could easily affect how she deals with those in her workplace on an everyday basis. In the university’s favor, if they don’t can her, they’re opening up another issue of creating a hostile work environment.
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### Author:  [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/3 "2008-05-18T01:19:03Z")
Federal government employees (including some state and local government employees) are restricted in their partisan political participation under the [Hatch Act](http://www.osc.gov/hatchact.htm).
One of the newest is social media. While anyone can have a blog, a federal employee who creates and posts to their non-government personal blog may be subject to the Hatch Act in that one can post partisan comments on a blog, but cannot include a link to a partisan political web site, nor collect (solicit) for campaign contributions for partisan candidates.
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/4 "2008-05-18T03:33:15Z")
[QUOTE=Duckster]
Federal government employees (including some state and local government employees) are restricted in their partisan political participation under the [Hatch Act](http://www.osc.gov/hatchact.htm).
One of the newest is social media. While anyone can have a blog, a federal employee who creates and posts to their non-government personal blog may be subject to the Hatch Act in that one can post partisan comments on a blog, but cannot include a link to a partisan political web site, nor collect (solicit) for campaign contributions for partisan candidates.
[/QUOTE]
But the Hatch Amendment does not restrict free speech rights. A person can still express his opinion. The Hatch Amendment would not restrict the actions this woman took.
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### Author:  [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/5 "2008-05-18T03:40:33Z")
Not to mention that she’s not covered by the Hatch Act.
> [@US Office of Special Counsel](#):
>
> Employees who work for educational or research institutions which are supported in whole or in part by a State or political subdivision of the State are not covered by the provisions of the Hatch Act.
[From the site linked by Duckster](http://www.osc.gov/ha_state.htm).
I’ll be back later tomorrow with some analysis. Suffice it to say that: a) she’s considering legal options, and b) she doesn’t have an open and shut case.
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/6 "2008-05-18T03:48:12Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq]
b) she doesn’t have an open and shut case.
[/QUOTE]
Does anyone?
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### Author:  [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/7 "2008-05-18T07:48:39Z")
Perhaps if she was employed in another capacity this might not have been such an issue, but since she works in HR, she will make decisions based on transparency and fairness.
She has just made public her views which are to the detriment of a particualr minority, yet at some point she will be involved with anything from discpilinary to welfare issues and managing attendance.
I would not be at all happy about such a person running a personal issue case, she has demonstrated in public a certain bias against one group, who knows what other biases she has.
It will also probably turn out that this is only one of a long running series of concerns, she seems rather good at self promotion, wonder who she stood on to get to her former position.
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/8 "2008-05-18T15:20:41Z")
Would you see the case the same if she was an atheist that was writing that Christians are all deluded?
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### Author:  [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/9 "2008-05-18T16:14:47Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
Would you see the case the same if she was an atheist that was writing that Christians are all deluded?
[/QUOTE]
If she wrote an article that said Christians violated the natural order, were immoral and decadent, and quoted several “recovering” Christians as ammunition to attack Christian beliefs and demonize them, then yeah I’d see the case the same.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/10 "2008-05-18T16:37:57Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier]
If she wrote an article that said Christians violated the natural order, were immoral and decadent, and quoted several “recovering” Christians as ammunition to attack Christian beliefs and demonize them, then yeah I’d see the case the same.
[/QUOTE]
Really, you’d apply that to professors? Sweet.
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### Author:  [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/11 "2008-05-18T16:45:03Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver]
Really, you’d apply that to professors? Sweet.
[/QUOTE]
I believe you’re the very first person in this thread to mention professors.
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/12 "2008-05-18T17:09:53Z")
Should a person working in HR have less free speech rights than a professor?
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### Author:  [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/13 "2008-05-18T17:13:59Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
Would you see the case the same if she was an atheist that was writing that Christians are all deluded?
[/QUOTE]
What a silly gotcha. If she reveals any significantly bias such that she can’t be trusted to handle her job impartially, then she’d be in the same place as she is now.
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/14 "2008-05-18T17:19:15Z")
[QUOTE=Bosstone]
What a silly gotcha. If she reveals any significantly bias such that she can’t be trusted to handle her job impartially, then she’d be in the same place as she is now.
[/QUOTE]
What evidence is there that she cannot be trusted in her job? No evidence has been revealed that she has improperly administrated any HR cases. At no point does she in any way say that she will base the decisions necessary for her job on her own personal opinions.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/15 "2008-05-18T17:50:00Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
What evidence is there that she cannot be trusted in her job? No evidence has been revealed that she has improperly administrated any HR cases. At no point does she in any way say that she will base the decisions necessary for her job on her own personal opinions.
[/QUOTE]
The evidence that she can’t be trusted is that she’s willing to admit in print that she’s a bigot. In this particular case, it’s not a very strong bigotry, being instead the standard mealy-mouthed “love the sinner” form of homophobia-lite. Of course she claims that she treats gay employees equally, but knowing her prejudices, can we trust her when she says that? In this particular case, I’m actually leaning towards “yes,” but I do think there’s a threshold past which one can legitimatly say that a person can’t be trusted in a position of authority over other workers on the basis of their prejudices. For example, if she’d written an article saying that gays all deserve to die from AIDS, I don’t think she can be trusted in an HR position, regardless of her protestations that she wouldn’t treat the filthy sinners any different from anyone else. Similarly, if it turned out she was a member of the highly anti-Semetic Nation of Islam, or were white, and had ties to the KKK, those would both be valid grounds for dismissing her from her position.
But, in this specific case, I think the firing was wrong. Her views are (unfortunetly) pretty mainstream, and (fortunetly) seem to stem more from well-intentioned ignorance than malice.
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### Author:  [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/16 "2008-05-18T18:37:37Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
But the Hatch Amendment does not restrict free speech rights. A person can still express his opinion. The Hatch Amendment would not restrict the actions this woman took.
[/QUOTE]
My point is that public employees may have conditions of employment that restrict their rights that do not apply in private employment. Has anyone looked the the university’s conditions of employment?
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### Author:  [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/17 "2008-05-18T19:32:16Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
Should a person working in HR have less free speech rights than a professor?
[/QUOTE]
She had the right to free speech, and she exercised that right. There were no legal reprecussions for expressing speech, and nothing in the constitution protects you from the consequences of saying hateful things.
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### Author:  [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)
#### Post date: [May 18, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/18 "2008-05-18T19:34:23Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
What evidence is there that she cannot be trusted in her job? No evidence has been revealed that she has improperly administrated any HR cases. At no point does she in any way say that she will base the decisions necessary for her job on her own personal opinions.
[/QUOTE]
Does that even matter? Can’t the university hire and fire for any reason they want, as long as they aren’t descriminating based on race/gender/age etc.?
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/19 "2008-05-19T01:25:00Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier]
Does that even matter? Can’t the university hire and fire for any reason they want, as long as they aren’t descriminating based on race/gender/age etc.?
[/QUOTE]
From UMKC Law School:
> [@](#):
>
> Pickering v Board of Education considered the case of a public school teacher fired for writing a letter to a newspaper critical of the local school board. In ordering the teacher reinstated, the Court found that a public employee’s statements on a matter of public concern could not be the basis for discharge unless the statement contained knowing or reckless falsehoods, or the statements were of the sort to cause a substantial interference with the ability of the employee to continue to do his job.
> [@](#):
>
> Connick (1983) and McPherson (1987) both discuss the important issue of what constitutes speech “of public concern.” The issue is important because, as the Court says in Connick, if speech does not relate to a matter of public concern, “absent the most unusual circumstances” the discharge will not present a First Amendment question for court review.
The question seems to be whether the letter she wrote was on a matter of public concern. Since she was responding to something that had already been printed in a public newspaper on a matter that is much discussed by the public, it appears to be a matter of public concern. I do not see knowing or reckless falsehoods or anything that causes a substantial interference her ability to do her job.
[http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/publicemployees.htm](http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/publicemployees.htm)
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### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/20 "2008-05-19T01:27:50Z")
Is this just another debate about how it’s hypocritical to demand tolerance while not tolerating intolerance?
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