# Public employees fired for expressing beliefs―U of Toledo Case
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [May 17, 2008, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695 "2008-05-17T23:20:21Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/21 "2008-05-19T01:31:16Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
Is this just another debate about how it’s hypocritical to demand tolerance while not tolerating intolerance?
[/QUOTE]
No, it is a debate on whether government employers should be firing people for exercising speech and the related legal issues.
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/22 "2008-05-19T02:02:16Z")
Not quite. It is about a person with a position in HR demonstrating bigotry. She can claim it wont affect her job ,but I would understand people being skeptical. I am.
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### Author:  [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/23 "2008-05-19T09:54:03Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Not quite. It is about a person with a position in HR demonstrating bigotry. She can claim it wont affect her job ,but I would understand people being skeptical. I am.
[/QUOTE]
I’m skeptical too. But in the absence of any evidence that she performed poorly at her job, does said skepticism justify her dismissal? I think not.
Why not fire people for what they do on the job, rather than for what their thoughts are?
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/24 "2008-05-19T11:39:18Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
I’m skeptical too. But in the absence of any evidence that she performed poorly at her job, does said skepticism justify her dismissal? I think not.
Why not fire people for what they do on the job, rather than for what their thoughts are?
[/QUOTE]
Because that’s not part of the New Order. Only a matter of time before she’s sent to MiniTru.
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### Author:  [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/25 "2008-05-19T12:59:08Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
I’m skeptical too. But in the absence of any evidence that she performed poorly at her job, does said skepticism justify her dismissal? I think not.
Why not fire people for what they do on the job, rather than for what their thoughts are?
[/QUOTE]
Bingo. My thoughts exactly.
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### Author:  [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/26 "2008-05-19T14:16:46Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Why not fire people for what they do on the job, rather than for what their thoughts are?
[/QUOTE]
Because once you have evidence that’s how they think waiting until they actually do it is to hand the victims of that behavior a VERY large stack of cash.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/27 "2008-05-19T14:28:15Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Not quite. It is about a person with a position in HR demonstrating bigotry. She can claim it wont affect her job ,but I would understand people being skeptical. I am.
[/QUOTE]
Actually, it appears to be both.
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### Author:  [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/28 "2008-05-19T14:38:05Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
I’m skeptical too. But in the absence of any evidence that she performed poorly at her job, does said skepticism justify her dismissal? I think not.
Why not fire people for what they do on the job, rather than for what their thoughts are?
[/QUOTE]
We can start by getting rid of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/29 "2008-05-19T15:13:57Z")
[QUOTE=Zakalwe]
Because once you have evidence that’s how they think waiting until they actually do it is to hand the victims of that behavior a VERY large stack of cash.
[/QUOTE]
Of course, firing someone who has done nothing wrong because they might do something in the future could leave you open to damages as well.
Still, just to be safe, maybe we could require employees to take loyalty oaths and so forth. Give a list of all the organizations they belong to (or ever belonged to), lie detector tests to be sure they aren’t hiding anything, investigations of their friends to be sure they aren’t tempted to transgress against tolerance, things like that. Can’t be too careful.
The struggle against thoughtcrime continues.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/30 "2008-05-19T15:25:27Z")
This really is ludiocrous. Can a police officer be fired for stating he believes the drug laws are overharsh or wrong? Sounds like the same thing to me.
People are supposed to be treated as professionals. Professionals often have to do/say things in their work that they do not personally agree with; to punish thought-crimes is just obscene and offensive.
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### Author:  [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/31 "2008-05-19T16:37:51Z")
[QUOTE=Zakalwe]
Because once you have evidence that’s how they think waiting until they actually do it is to hand the victims of that behavior a VERY large stack of cash.
[/QUOTE]
Once they actually do what?
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### Author:  [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/32 "2008-05-19T18:09:39Z")
It sounds to me like she publicly announced exactly how she is not eligible for a high-level job in HR. It’s not an issue of free speech, it’s an issue of whether she is qualified for that job. The clear answer is “no.”
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### Author:  [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/33 "2008-05-19T18:12:24Z")
[QUOTE=CurtC]
It sounds to me like she publicly announced exactly how she is not eligible for a high-level job in HR. It’s not an issue of free speech, it’s an issue of whether she is qualified for that job. The clear answer is “no.”
[/QUOTE]
What about her public announcement disqualifies her? Can you be specific?
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### Author:  [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/34 "2008-05-19T22:07:58Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
What about her public announcement disqualifies her? Can you be specific?
[/QUOTE]
Sure - the entire letter was dripping with bigotry. That’s incompatible with any decision-making job in HR, especially “associate vice president for human resources.”
[Here’s another article on her termination.](http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080513/NEWS21/805130363/0/NEWS17)
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### Author:  [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/35 "2008-05-19T22:27:33Z")
[QUOTE=CurtC]
Sure - the entire letter was dripping with bigotry.
[/QUOTE]
I guess you and I have a different understanding of the meaning of the word “specific.” Usually it means, among other things, “not general,” or “as opposed to the general.” Your complaint is \*general \*in its nature, not _specific_.
But, for the sake of the argument, how does her expression of ideas in a letter relate to the performing of her job duties? Again, if you don’t mind, could you try to be specific? One good way to start would be to describe a particular duty, and show how her expression of ideas in a letter to the editor would necessarily prevent her from performing that duty.
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### Author:  [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)
#### Post date: [May 19, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/36 "2008-05-19T22:28:52Z")
[QUOTE=CurtC]
Sure - the entire letter was dripping with bigotry. That’s incompatible with any decision-making job in HR, especially “associate vice president for human resources.”
[/QUOTE]
I don’t see how the letter is “dripping with bigotry.” She believes that being gay is a lifestyle choice, yeah (wonky, but not bigotry), and that there are differences between being black and being gay (is that in dispute?) She notes a factual error in the original article, and then ends on a bit of a religious tirade, sure, but I don’t see anything in there that would be incompatible with HR.
Should anyone in HR should be banned from having political bumper stickers, too? Oh, and no Christians or atheists, since they have strong belief systems. Only agnostic Independents in HR?
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### Author:  [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2008, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/37 "2008-05-20T00:46:10Z")
I think the Crystal is probably SOL, because she made reference to her employment in her original article. She said she was an employee of the University. Probably her biggest mistake. Then, she continued later to discuss the controversy at the Univ. about the disparity of benefits between the UT and the merged MUO were correct, they weren’t about discrimination against homosexuals, but rather the different contracts each U had. But she argued this, IMHO, as a knowledgeable person professionally involved with the problem.
If she had avoided any mention of her employment, she would have been OK.
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### Author:  [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2008, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/38 "2008-05-20T04:25:16Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
I guess you and I have a different understanding of the meaning of the word “specific.” Usually it means, among other things, “not general,” or “as opposed to the general.” Your complaint is \*general \*in its nature, not _specific_.
[/QUOTE]
Specifically, pretty much her whole letter was dripping with bigotry. Here are the examples which I thought would be obvious to everyone:
- Equating homosexuality to sin
- Statement that homosexuality is a choice
- Glowing talk of homosexuals who were straightened out by Christianity.
HR is the part of a company that enforces its non-discrimination policy. The university president described it accurately when he said “The public position you have taken in the Toledo Free Press is in direct contradiction to university policies and procedures…” Her statements would look really bad in a discrimination lawsuit against the university - those statements demonstrate a hostile work environment when announced publicly by an administration official.
> [@samclem](#):
>
> I think the Crystal is probably SOL, because she made reference to her employment in her original article.
She didn’t - she merely mentioned that “The university is working diligently to address this issue in a reasonable and cost-efficient manner, for all employees, not just one segment,” which isn’t the same as saying she is employed there.
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2008, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/39 "2008-05-20T14:06:40Z")
The thread title should have said " State Human Resources employee that publicly states bigitry.,Should she be fired". Answer yes. Or put into a position that does not deal with HR.
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### Author:  [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)
#### Post date: [May 20, 2008, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-employees-fired-for-expressing-beliefs-u-of-toledo-case/449695/40 "2008-05-20T14:29:40Z")
[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach]
Only agnostic Independents in HR?
[/QUOTE]
As far as any official point of view wrt the job …yes. HR has to mirror the legal system or live in fear of it.
By openly stating she holds these biases in a legally citable fashion she has brought any gray area HR decision she has ever made into question where it involves those biases. High level HR people also should know this better than anyone. Now anyone on the wrong side of those biases has a big piece of legal leverage to sue the crap out of the school and win.
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