# "Public good" workers shouldn't be unionized **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121 "2012-04-18T03:55:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/81 "2012-04-19T21:41:17Z")
> [@Mnemnosyne](#): > > I would therefore argue that critical jobs that the public cannot effectively do without should be similarly handled. Large areas of the US are covered by volunteer fire departments. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/82 "2012-04-19T22:06:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Nope. Ha! One clue to the absurdity of what you’re conjuring up in your head in regards to my position is that you’re classifying me as a communist. (And, evidently, a socialist, earlier, but you refused to give a cite for that.) That’s rich. This is the first charge I’m hearing of me being anywhere near the left end of the spectrum. Perhaps you’re angling for a free dinner at Mindy’s. No, I was aware you’re a conservative. I had hoped that pointing out that what you were saying was essentially communism might awaken you to the absurdity of your position. But you appear to be immune to irony. > [@magellan01](#): > > Now, you may be of the opinion that just because someone might not belong to a union that they are without means to improve their job situation. That’s false on it’s face, as there are million and millions of people who do that without the weight of a union at their backs. Is this really news to you? > > Here’s an idea that may help you get over your infatuation with characterizing this—or any position I’ve ever held—as anything near socialism or communism: if having a union do your bidding is so important to you, don’t take a job where there is no union. And I say good for them. I have no problem with people who choose to work non-unionized jobs. But that’s not we’re talking about is it? What we’re talking about is your position that large groups of people should not be allowed to form unions. You’re the one advocating that the government set limits on what people can do in order to make things better for the government. Think about this. If it was 1981 and we were in Poland, I’d be on the side of Lech Walesa and you’d be on the side of Wojciech Jaruzelski. ---
**Author:** ![Mnemnosyne](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mnemnosyne/32/3347_2.png) [@Mnemnosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mnemnosyne)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/83 "2012-04-19T22:11:31Z")
Indeed, if a volunteer fire department exists, then it wouldn’t be something that needs to be mandated, but if none exists and organizing one seems impractical for some reason, then it’s something that’s necessary - at least in a dense urban area. In more open regions where there may be acres between buildings, I probably wouldn’t consider firefighting to meet the criteria even if no fire department exists. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/84 "2012-04-19T22:40:13Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Doubtful. Most states have no official certification requirements for private schools. Only public schools fall under the aegis of state education departments. If catholic schools require prerequisites equivalent to certification, that’s their choice and not a non-negotiable requirement like it is on the state level due to NCLB. This is not so in my state, > [@](#): > > All classroom teachers must hold appropriate Washington state certification except teachers for religious courses or courses for which no counterpart exists in the public schools. In exceptional cases, people of unusual competence without certification may teach so long as a certified person exercises general supervision. Annual written statements must be submitted to the Superintendent of Public Instruction reporting and explaining such circumstances. Wash. Rev. Code § 28A.195.010(3). ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/85 "2012-04-19T22:53:09Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I see you didn’t answer my questions. You may have missed them. > > If I do serve the public, under what conditions will you allow me to no longer serve the public or consequently am I enslaved to serving the “common good” in perpetuity? In other words, if the conditions of the job are not to my liking, why can I not leave temporarily and unpaid (striking) or permanently and unpaid (quitting)? > > About union protection: > Should I be required to work outside of my contracted hours for no pay because I serve the public? > Should I be required to pay for my own supplies simply to do my job because I serve the public? > Should I be required to provide paper, pencils and other educational supplies to my students out of my own money because I serve the public? > Should I accept verbal abuse from students and parents and in some cases physical abuse from students because I serve the public? > Should I accept intimidation from administrators because they choose to take actions that violate state law and they do not want me to take advatage of legal protection? > And a further question: why should someone working in a public sector job be forced to give up the same rights as those in a private sector job. Or is your contention that those with qualifications applicable to the publice service field do so in support of the common good? If so, why do you not require this sacrifice of everyone? I am an exempt employee by means of federal law and thus ineligible for overtime pay, this is not a unique trait that teachers suffer from. I find it highly unlikely that you do not have legal recourse against violent students. Oh yes…I have been fingerprinted and I have been required to undergo a background check for 20 years…and I’m in IT ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/86 "2012-04-19T23:01:20Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I am an exempt employee by means of federal law and thus ineligible for overtime pay, this is not a unique trait that teachers suffer from. > > I find it highly unlikely that you do not have legal recourse against violent students. > > Oh yes…I have been fingerprinted and I have been required to undergo a background check for 20 years…and I’m in IT Just to document this, lots knowledge workers in this country have no right to overtime pay. [http://www.ewin.com/articles/exneot.htm](http://www.ewin.com/articles/exneot.htm) Teaching is one of the few exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2012, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/87 "2012-04-19T23:55:24Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > I didn’t look to see what state you work in. No, we don’t have contracts. Wait…so you do have the chance to negotiate. Is that because you are represented by a union? I work in the same state that \*\*Little Nemo \*\*did and I don’t get a chance to negotiate _precisely_ because I am not in a union. In late 2007/early 2008 the two largest state employee unions in this state negotiated and ratified contracts covering the period for 2007-2008. The legislation authorizing payment of those contract terms included raises every April from 2007-2010 in addition to increments along the salary scale for those who were not making the top salary. As was customary, the legislation included the same raises and increments for management and other non-union employees. Union employees got every one of those raises. Due to the financial crisis, two years of them were withheld for the non-union employees, because the state was not obligated by contract to pay them. The unions negotiated again in 2011. This negotiation was more difficult, and did not provide any raises in 2012 and 2013. Again, we non-union employees got same deal - but we’re ending up with four years without a raise , not two. And it may be more, since the governor can always take away the 2014 and '15 raises . Pretty soon I’m going to demote myself. And by the way, even though the state doesn’t have to pay me according to the pay scale that was imposed by fiat , it is still illegal for me to strike. > [@](#): > > I don’t have a lifetime contract. If I fuck up, I can be fired. And yes, I can supposedly look at a chart and figure out how much I’ll make…but for the last several years, I forget how many, those increases have been frozen. So the chart is there, but if the money isn’t there to pay it, you sit until there is. In my last position, my salary was actually set by the legislature. What in the world gives you the idea that union employees _can’t_ be fired? They often aren’t , but that’s a different issue. In my experience, (and I’ve worked in unionized government environments for over 20 years) those who deserve to be fired but aren’t keep their jobs because some level of management either didn’t have the will to fire them or didn’t follow the proper procedures. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/88 "2012-04-20T00:42:46Z")
> [@Mnemnosyne](#): > > I would therefore argue that critical jobs that the public cannot effectively do without should be similarly handled. Criteria essentially being: anything that even a relatively short disruption of, has the high likelihood of causing immediate and widespread damage to people, infrastructure, or property. The prospective employee should sign a contract for a certain period of service, and until that service is complete, they should not have the option to either leave or refuse to do the job. ‘Blue flu’ and people organizing themselves to call in sick at the same time can similarly be headed off with rules against any conspiracy to negatively impact the performance of the job. I have a huge problem with the idea that people shouldn’t be allowed to leave their job. But aside from that, what you’re saying here is basically standard operating procedure now. As far as strikes go, most contracts have language making it illegal to strike during the term of the contract. Strikes really only happen once the contract has expired, and no new deal has been reached at the negotiation table. So the workers strike to put pressure on management to make a good deal. That’s why you see tactics like sick-outs. And most contracts with these critical public sector unions have rules against sick-outs. When it happens, the unions are very careful not to leave a paper trail or evidence that can be used in a court of law to prove that they called a sick-out. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/89 "2012-04-20T00:53:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The deals where the pensions were determined, depending on the municipality, by the last year or two of employment. And the soon-to-be-retirees gamed the system by working every overtime shift they could, artificially inflating the salary that their pension would be based on. Of course, the younger workers would step out of the way, with the understanding that at the end of their careers, the favor would be returned. Ah. Management rigorously enforcing terms favorable to them is how the world is supposed to work. Labor rigorously enforcing terms favorable to _them_ is “gaming the system”. You really expect this argument to be taken seriously? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/90 "2012-04-20T00:59:04Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > So we are not comparing white-collar public workers to private-sector WalMart cashiers. We’re comparing government janitors to privately employed janitors, public school teachers to private school teachers, government graphic designers to private industry graphic designers. And when we do, we find that the public employees get much higher pay and many more benefits. 1. Asserted Fact A would inexorably lead to Result B (inability of private firms to hire qualified janitors, teachers, or graphic designers). 2. Result B has not occurred. 3. Ergo, Asserted Fact A is incorrect. Q.E.D. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/91 "2012-04-20T02:43:12Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Total employer compensation cost in 2011 averaged $40.76 per hour for state and local workers; for private industry workers it was $28.24 per hour. The disparities are also big for federal workers. A janitor working for Uncle Sam makes $30,110 a year, while his or her private-sector peer makes $24,188. Federal graphic designers, “recreation workers,” and even P.R. flacks all make between 50 percent and 100 percent more than their private-sector colleagues.[/indent] > > So we are not comparing white-collar public workers to private-sector WalMart cashiers. We’re comparing government janitors to privately employed janitors, public school teachers to private school teachers, government graphic designers to private industry graphic designers. And when we do, we find that the public employees get much higher pay and many more benefits. I actually spoke to that. Those are cherry picked professions AND I also noted that of the jobs that pay shit in both the public and private sectors, such as cashiers, there’s a shitload more of them to be had in the private sector. How is IT pay in both worlds? How about doctors, lawyers, engineers, executives, etc? > [@](#): > > That article comes from 20 years ago, whereas the article I quoted was published this week. I see no reason to doubt that your article was correct at the time it was published. The phenomenon of public sector unions grabbing up a larger and larger share of the budget pie is fairly recent. As I pointed out in a previous post, state and local government budgets have shot up by 60% in one decade, with most of the increase going to salaries and pensions for government workers. The makeup of the public and private sectors hasn’t drastically switched in the past 20 years. Uncle Sam didn’t nationalize WalMart, Target, K-Mart, McDs, and Burger King, to the best of my knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/92 "2012-04-20T15:15:31Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > 1. Ergo, Asserted Fact A is incorrect. Q.E.D. > **[Occupational Employment and Wage Statistics (OEWS) Tables](https://www.bls.gov/oes/tables.htm)** > > Tables Created by BLS > **[Occupational Employment and Wage Statistics (OEWS) Tables](https://www.bls.gov/oes/tables.htm)** > > Tables Created by BLS > **[Occupational Employment and Wage Statistics (OEWS) Tables](https://www.bls.gov/oes/tables.htm)** > > Tables Created by BLS The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics confirms that the wages for government workers in these professions and many others are higher than wages for non-government workers, and that’s not even mentioning the pensions and other benefits. Is the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics a bunch of liars? Do you have a better source of data which contradicts what the BLS says? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/93 "2012-04-20T15:17:01Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I am an exempt employee by means of federal law and thus ineligible for overtime pay, this is not a unique trait that teachers suffer from. Do you have contracted hours though? Teacher contracts specify what times you have to be on duty e.g. 7am-3:30pm on the listed 184 days out of the year. As for the public vs. private debate, there are 51 different licensing requirements. I was basing my statement on the states I’m familiar with [California](http://www.cde.ca.gov/sp/ps/rq/psfaq.asp#a15) > [@](#): > > Must private school teachers possess a valid California teaching credential? > > No. EC Section 48222 specifies only that private school teachers be “…persons capable of teaching”. However, many private school teachers do possess current California teaching credentials. An NPS (defined in #10, above) that accepts public school students with individualized education programs must have appropriately qualified and credentialed staff. [Arizona](http://www.edchoice.org/Documents/SchoolChoice/Private-Schools-Laws-and-Regulations/arizona.pdf) > [@](#): > > No requirements for accreditation or licensing in Arizona. Colorado is based on job hunting I have done. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/94 "2012-04-20T15:54:53Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Do you have contracted hours though? > Teacher contracts specify what times you have to be on duty e.g. 7am-3:30pm on the listed 184 days out of the year. > > As for the public vs. private debate, there are 51 different licensing requirements. I was basing my statement on the states I’m familiar with > > [California](http://www.cde.ca.gov/sp/ps/rq/psfaq.asp#a15) > [Arizona](http://www.edchoice.org/Documents/SchoolChoice/Private-Schools-Laws-and-Regulations/arizona.pdf) > Colorado > is based on job hunting I have done. I was refuting claims that teachers had some special hardship, the fact that you are forced to work more than 1,472 is because your Unions are ineffectual or are negotiating in bad faith. I would suggest you may want to consider recall vote. Unions in their current form have a vested interest in protecting the union over the workers, that is my main issue with them. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/95 "2012-04-20T16:01:35Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > As for the public vs. private debate, there are 51 different licensing requirements. I was basing my statement on the states I’m familiar with Unless I’ve missed something, Vermont, Texas and New York should all be similar. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/96 "2012-04-20T16:04:30Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > I was refuting claims that teachers had some special hardship, the fact that you are forced to work more than 1,472 is because your Unions are ineffectual or are negotiating in bad faith. I would suggest you may want to consider recall vote. > > Unions in their current form have a vested interest in protecting the union over the workers, that is my main issue with them. I may have been unclear but the district in which we had to work unpaid outside of contract hours (and IANAL but I think both sides need to abide by a contract) was the one without a union because everyone who mentioned they were thinking of forming a union was fired immediately for cause (so no unemployment or pay). ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/97 "2012-04-20T16:28:36Z")
Did they fire an intent or were they just griping? Federal law bars public employers from retaliating against employees for forming a union even if it not a complete protection. If you gossip and cause issues you get fired, file an intent to organize and they put them-self a much higher risk. But any Union rep worth their salt should have helped you with that. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/98 "2012-04-20T16:29:12Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I may have been unclear but the district in which we had to work unpaid outside of contract hours (and IANAL but I think both sides need to abide by a contract) was the one without a union because everyone who mentioned they were thinking of forming a union was fired immediately for cause (so no unemployment or pay). What “cause” were they fired for? ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/99 "2012-04-21T14:24:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Yes, it’s real fun being in a public service union. It’s illegal to go on strike. So our negotiations basically consists of begging. That’s a damn shame ! Wouldn’t it be better if you just relied on the fact that you are the best person to do the important job that you do? … one of the best…pretty important …at least adequate… hey, I got here first… ??? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/100 "2012-04-21T15:30:54Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > That’s a damn shame ! Wouldn’t it be better if you just relied on the fact that you are the best person to do the important job that you do? Being the best only matters if you have the leverage to apply it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121.md?page=6)