# "Public good" workers shouldn't be unionized **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121 "2012-04-18T03:55:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/101 "2012-04-21T17:48:14Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > That’s a damn shame ! Wouldn’t it be better if you just relied on the fact that you are the best person to do the important job that you do? > > … one of the best…pretty important …at least adequate… hey, I got here first… ??? That only works if the employer is willing to negotiate on an individual basis. It’s possible if the employer has a small number of employees- if a small-town police department has 10 employees, it might be willing to negotiate individually. The NYPD with about 34,000 officers and who knows how many civilians is another story. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/102 "2012-04-21T17:56:30Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > That only works if the employer is willing to negotiate on an individual basis. It’s possible if the employer has a small number of employees- if a small-town police department has 10 employees, it might be willing to negotiate individually. The NYPD with about 34,000 officers and who knows how many civilians is another story. If companies Disney and Exxon do the NYPD can. This is where the close shop as a goal for Unions seems crazy to me, it only helps the employer and ineffective unions. As an example, the airport shuttle drivers here are teamsters but get paid $.50 over minimum wage!!! I am sure that many could do better than that if they were not stuck with the teamsters. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/103 "2012-04-21T18:01:53Z")
At a college campus where I used to work, part-time faculty had to fight long and hard to put a union together and then negotiate a contract. Even the FT faculty there didn’t want us in their unit. Without the negotiations, the low pay and total lack of consideration would have continued under the management they had. My current campus has a union that includes both FT and PT. The pay is better, we finally secured some rehire rights (PT faculty have to be rehired every semester), and the District and unit renegotiate on a regular basis. Are there bad unions? Yes. Should they all be abolished because of that? No. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/104 "2012-04-21T18:07:24Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > My current campus has a union that includes both FT and PT. The pay is better, we finally secured some rehire rights (PT faculty have to be rehired every semester), and the District and unit renegotiate on a regular basis. Why his it a good thing that PT faculty have to be rehired every semester? Shouldn’t they be hiring the best people? If three amazing candidates move into the area in July, shouldn’t they be hired in lieu of less staler performers? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/105 "2012-04-21T18:12:44Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Ah. Management rigorously enforcing terms favorable to them is how the world is supposed to work. Labor rigorously enforcing terms favorable to _them_ is “gaming the system”. > > You really expect this argument to be taken seriously? :dubious: I actually don’t expect any that upsets you’re skewed view of reality to be taken seriously by you. And if you don’t think what I described represents people gaming the system, you’re once again mistaken. But please, fee free to defend the practice. You must defend it, because if you can’t, you’ll be admitting that you agree that they were gaming the system and your post to me was an involuntary knee-jerk response. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/106 "2012-04-21T18:27:25Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > If companies Disney and Exxon do the NYPD can. What in the world makes you think that Disney and Exxon negotiate with every single one of their employees individually, and don’t simply use a pay scale set by the company without negotiation for most jobs? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/107 "2012-04-21T18:28:34Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I think where the disagreement lies is that if that is what you demand of your public servants, good luck finding enough qualified teachers, police, fire, judges, dogcatchers etc. to provide those services to a reasonable standard. Here lies the crux of the issue. You seem to think that a union is a necessary mechanism to ensure that workers are treated fairly. That is simply a false assumption, as there are hundreds, thousands, of instances in which the employees necessary to do the job are present, and likely, even happy, where no union exists. Like in many businesses, if they want workers there, and to stay there so they don’t have to constantly retrain new ones, they have to pay a fair wage for the job, with commensurate benefits. If they don’t the workers will go elsewhere. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So if you want to run your state with the expectation that public sector employees are truly servants then that’s fine but you may want to look at what is happening in [Wisconsin](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2011/0916/Wisconsin-teachers-retire-in-droves-after-union-loss-in-bargaining-fight). Oh please. They are no more servants than are the employees at law firms, advertising agencies, or the automotive shop down the street. The people you cite wanted to leave and left. More power top them. Maybe they’re taking an early retirement, they found a better job, or are finally going to write that best seller and become a multi-millionaire. In the meantime, new, younger teachers will have jobs. That’s a good thing, no. If it turns out that the schools feel that the more experienced teachers is a loss too great, they can always adjust pay structures to encourage people to stay. The important distinction is that that should come from the people doing the hiring, not an army holding a gun to their head because the individuals don’t have the backbone to stand up for themselves individually. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/108 "2012-04-21T18:31:36Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > What in the world makes you think that Disney and Exxon negotiate with every single one of their employees individually, and don’t simply use a pay scale set by the company without negotiation for most jobs? It’s actually a little of both. There are ranges for most jobs, with room for negotiation. The further up the food chain you go, the more flexibility there is. But that just makes sense, as the lowest payed employees are doing the jobs with the loses sill sets there is an abundance of people ready, willing and able to do the job. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/109 "2012-04-21T18:39:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why his it a good thing that PT faculty have to be rehired every semester? Shouldn’t they be hiring the best people? If three amazing candidates move into the area in July, shouldn’t they be hired in lieu of less staler performers? I didn’t mean that they are automatically rehired. I mean there is no long-term contract. Shouldn’t those who have good evaluations for many years have some preference over others? A policy of constant turnover isn’t a great policy. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/110 "2012-04-21T18:41:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Here lies the crux of the issue. You seem to think that a union is a necessary mechanism to ensure that workers are treated fairly. That is simply a false assumption, as there are hundreds, thousands, of instances in which the employees necessary to do the job are present, and likely, even happy, where no union exists. > > Like in many businesses, if they want workers there, and to stay there so they don’t have to constantly retrain new ones, they have to pay a fair wage for the job, with commensurate benefits. If they don’t the workers will go elsewhere. That’s true enough, and probably the best way for an employer to keep a union free-workplace is to treat the employees as well as they could hope to be treated with a union - except you’re leaving out the little matter of politics. No one ever got elected saying that he or she was going to raise taxes to provide more pay and better working conditions to public employees , and they certainly won’t get elected if they provide it without the cover a contract provides. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/111 "2012-04-21T18:48:01Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > I didn’t mean that they are automatically rehired. I mean there is no long-term contract. > Shouldn’t those who have good evaluations for many years have some preference over others? A policy of constant turnover isn’t a great policy. And it certainly isn’t good for the students when there’s that much instability. Add to this the fact that most PT faculty, who teach the majority of transferable core courses, don’t even have an office or work space in which to meet with students. The so-called freeway flyer PT faculty, who teach on multiple campuses to make ends meet since they can’t get more than 1 or 2 classes per campus and who spend much of their life on the road, shouldn’t even have to do what they’re doing. It would be great if more PT faculty who have proven themselves over the years got hired as FT. But this is happening far less frequently since the Districts have figured out that they can save some money by hiring more PT. That’s why PTs outnumber FTs on most campuses. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/112 "2012-04-21T18:50:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Being the best only matters if you have the leverage to apply it. Being best is its own leverage… if being the best one for the job really matters. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/113 "2012-04-21T18:53:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why his it a good thing that PT faculty have to be rehired every semester? Shouldn’t they be hiring the best people? If three amazing candidates move into the area in July, shouldn’t they be hired in lieu of less staler performers? Here is a more detailed look at the situation: **[http://temple-news.com/2011/11/07/adjunct-faculty-endures-sub-par-conditions-at-some-schools/](http://temple-news.com/2011/11/07/adjunct-faculty-endures-sub-par-conditions-at-some-schools/)** ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/114 "2012-04-21T18:55:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, I was aware you’re a conservative. I had hoped that pointing out that what you were saying was essentially communism might awaken you to the absurdity of your position. But you appear to be immune to irony.. “Irony” is not the term to accurately describe your lame attempt to classify as a communist. “Stupid” comes to mind, as do a bunch of other descriptors. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And I say good for them. I have no problem with people who choose to work non-unionized jobs. > > But that’s not we’re talking about is it? What we’re talking about is your position that large groups of people should not be allowed to form unions. . No, THAT is not what were talking about. My position is that _certain jobs_ shouldn’t be able to be part of the union set. And if being in a union is that important _to you_, then _don’t take one of those jobs_. Simple. For instance, if someone has very little initiative and a poor work ethic, and is content with doing a mediocre job, they should do all they can to seek the protections a union would afford them. If you are the opposite of that, you can take a union job or not, though you are likely to be frustrated, not to mention doing yourself a great disservice. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’re the one advocating that the government set limits on what people can do in order to make things better for the government.. No, I’m the one advocating that if the people think it would improve their community to have a team of dogcatchers, that the personal desires of the dogcatchers do not supersede the function of the dog catching need. And that the community has the right—and responsibility—to have that function fulfilled at the lowest cost possible. Now if all the dog catchers want to form a book club or a hiking club, good for them. But it runs counter to the benefit of the community to have that group form a union and then come back, en masse, and demand that unless they all receive 50% raises and 2 additional weeks of vacation, they will all strike. If I were the mayor, if they did strike, they’d be fired for not doing their jobs and then be replaced immediately. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Think about this. If it was 1981 and we were in Poland, I’d be on the side of Lech Walesa and you’d be on the side of Wojciech Jaruzelski. Think about this, if this was 1881 in America, I might be in agreement with you. But, as luck would have it, we’re not in Poland of 1981 nor in America of a hundred years prior. Welcome to the here and now. Embrace it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/115 "2012-04-21T19:04:40Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > I didn’t mean that they are automatically rehired. I mean there is no long-term contract. > Shouldn’t those who have good evaluations for many years have some preference over others? A policy of constant turnover isn’t a great policy. I basically agree, but you’re talking about two different things. One is a long-term contract, the other is some degree of preference for those with the experience and good evaluations. I find it hard to believe that those good evaluations translate to some degree of “preference”. No? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/116 "2012-04-21T19:08:34Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > That’s true enough, and probably the best way for an employer to keep a union free-workplace is to treat the employees as well as they could hope to be treated with a union - except you’re leaving out the little matter of politics. No one ever got elected saying that he or she was going to raise taxes to provide more pay and better working conditions to public employees , and they certainly won’t get elected if they provide it without the cover a contract provides. I don’t believe that is as definitive as you portray. If I believe my governor is of the philosophical bent that government should be as small as possible sand that say, our education system, should be both excellent and affordable, I would trust him to raise teachers pay. Either to keep a stellar system stellar, or to improve a horrible one. But with the latter problem, money alone has shown itself consistently to not be the answer. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/117 "2012-04-21T19:09:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s actually a little of both. There are ranges for most jobs, with room for negotiation. The further up the food chain you go, the more flexibility there is. But that just makes sense, as the lowest payed employees are doing the jobs with the loses sill sets there is an abundance of people ready, willing and able to do the job. And that works in some jobs where experience might not matter much - it might not matter if a cashier leaves her job at the Disney Store because no matter how good she is, she can only get a .25 hour raise yearly. In fact, it might not matter if every Disney Store cashier quits within a year of being hired. On the other hand, in the NYPD experience does matter. You don’t want a high turnover, resulting in the majority of officers having little experience. And it costs a lot more to train a cop than a cashier. Even if Disney believes experienced cashiers are worth more, they are still not going to negotiate with each individual employee. They will simply set the pay scale as high as necessary to obtain the result that they want - but the head of Disney won’t have to raise taxes and then seek reelection to do so. Remember, I’m a government employee who is not in a union. No one negotiates my compensation or benefits. They are imposed by fiat. I make exactly the same as every single person with the same number of years at my pay grade. Whether I do a great job, an adequate job or just barely avoid being fired, my pay and benefits are the same. BTW- are you really against public employees being able to form unions or only against the right to strike? They don’t necessarily go together- in NY at least, public employees are not permitted to strike and I don’t have a problem with that. I don’t have a problem with them continuing to work while negotiating an agreement , and I’m not sure why you would. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/118 "2012-04-21T19:12:42Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Here is a more detailed look at the situation: > **[http://temple-news.com/2011/11/07/adjunct-faculty-endures-sub-par-conditions-at-some-schools/](http://temple-news.com/2011/11/07/adjunct-faculty-endures-sub-par-conditions-at-some-schools/)** Interesting article, but what I get out of it: don’t go into teaching in higher education because there is a glut. 350 or 700 candidates for one opening. Heavens, one’s career plan might as well be to play for the Dallas Mavericks. It seems a clear case where the supply is so great that the employers can squeeze them and treat them as badly as they’d like to. That’s a really fundamental problem with the economics of the industry. It’s not anything that can be fixed until the people on the supply side have more power in the negotiations. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/119 "2012-04-21T19:26:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t believe that is as definitive as you portray. If I believe my governor is of the philosophical bent that government should be as small as possible sand that say, our education system, should be both excellent and affordable, I would trust him to raise teachers pay. Either to keep a stellar system stellar, or to improve a horrible one. But with the latter problem, money alone has shown itself consistently to not be the answer. You might trust the governor, and so might I. But that’s not nearly enough to win an election. Money isn’t nearly the only problem in the education system. However, it’s well known in NYC that many NYPD officers leave for higher paying jobs in other local police departments, and in fact , police departments from as far as Albequerque and Seattle come to recruit from the NYPD . The NYPD has even been accused of refusing to cooperate with background investigations being conducted by the Port Authority Police on NYPD officers seeking to join the PAPD. Surely the mayor and City Council could just raise their pay enough to keep them from leaving - yet it never happens. Because politicians start fearing for their jobs when the NYPD is simply spared from budget cuts. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/120 "2012-04-21T22:20:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Interesting article, but what I get out of it: don’t go into teaching in higher education because there is a glut. 350 or 700 candidates for one opening. Heavens, one’s career plan might as well be to play for the Dallas Mavericks. > > It seems a clear case where the supply is so great that the employers can squeeze them and treat them as badly as they’d like to. That’s a really fundamental problem with the economics of the industry. It’s not anything that can be fixed until the people on the supply side have more power in the negotiations. Agreed. If I had had any inkling that things were going to get so bad, I would not have gone into higher ed all those years ago. Well, yes, to the second point too. But we can’t negotiate a contract without a union. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121.md?page=7)