# "Public good" workers shouldn't be unionized **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121 "2012-04-18T03:55:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/121 "2012-04-21T22:21:14Z")
Until or unless that happens, the exploitation continues. I would not advise anyone now to go for a job in higher ed, especially as a professor, because you’re very likely to end up being PT in it for decades. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/122 "2012-04-21T22:22:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why his it a good thing that PT faculty have to be rehired every semester? Shouldn’t they be hiring the best people? If three amazing candidates move into the area in July, shouldn’t they be hired in lieu of less staler performers? A high rate of turnover isn’t generally considered to be a good sign in any industry I can think of. I don’t see why a college would be any different in that respect. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/123 "2012-04-22T03:23:27Z")
> [@Scarlett67](#): > > Anyone who thinks public employee unions are a bad thing is welcome to take over my husband’s job. He’s a CNA working on the locked dementia unit at the state veterans’ home. Thanks to the recent loss of collective bargaining, working conditions and schedules have been getting worse. There are no more written work rules, and yet he can be fired immediately for breaking a rule he doesn’t know exists. Because no one wants to work there anymore, or they hire people who soon quit once they find out what it’s like, the facility is seriously understaffed. But they won’t work short-handed, which means that everyone is working mega-overtime, double shifts and/or working your days off, often with little to no notice. He’s lucky if he gets to keep his every other weekend off and every other Tuesday and Friday. But he hasn’t had two days off in a row for months now. This is a job in which he deals constantly with bodily fluids and violent residents, and he has to stay calm and professional. It’s no cakewalk, and there’s no phoning it in. He has to be at 100% for the entire shift. > > But hey, if you think having a “union” job is a stroll down Easy Street, come on down. What gets me is that many people who hear of your husband’s situation would tell him he’s lucky to have a job at all or else he should “go get another job.” As if no one is supposed to breathe a single negative word about poor working conditions, and as if other jobs were easy to grab. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/124 "2012-04-22T03:24:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why his it a good thing that PT faculty have to be rehired every semester? Shouldn’t they be hiring the best people? If three amazing candidates move into the area in July, shouldn’t they be hired in lieu of less staler performers? Did you mean stellar or less stale? (Honestly, I read it as “stale” at first and wondered if I might be past expiry after all these years. :D) ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/125 "2012-04-22T05:20:54Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > What in the world makes you think that Disney and Exxon negotiate with every single one of their employees individually, and don’t simply use a pay scale set by the company without negotiation for most jobs? How does individual negotiations preclude a pay scale? They have pay ranges but it is not limited by term of service like a NRLB union job. The employee can negotiate, I have done it dozens of times. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/126 "2012-04-22T05:21:56Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Did you mean stellar or less stale? (Honestly, I read it as “stale” at first and wondered if I might be past expiry after all these years. :D) The adjuncts tend to be top performers…it’t tends to be the tenured dead wood that hurts students. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/127 "2012-04-22T05:29:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Here lies the crux of the issue. You seem to think that a union is a necessary mechanism to ensure that workers are treated fairly. That is simply a false assumption, as there are hundreds, thousands, of instances in which the employees necessary to do the job are present, and likely, even happy, where no union exists. Seriously? Have you read any of my posts wherein I describe the difference working in a district with a union and without one? So you’re saying that in most years there are plenty of qualified math, science and special education teachers to fill positions. Do you realize that you have now completely countered the notion that public employees should NOT be allowed to strike? I believe that both you and Sicks Ate pointed out that many public workers are not easily replacable? ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/128 "2012-04-22T12:47:15Z")
How about …let anybody strike as long as employers can then replace them immediately? I guess that wouldn’t really work for the public sector since the “employers” are elected officials. Now that’s what I call leverage! ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/129 "2012-04-22T14:13:01Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > How does individual negotiations preclude a pay scale? > > They have pay ranges but it is not limited by term of service like a NRLB union job. The employee can negotiate, I have done it dozens of times. I’m not saying that some people in some jobs can’t negotiate individually. Of course some people can. I’m asking what makes you think that large employers like Disney negotiate each job individually, rather than having all ride attendants start at X or all receptionists start at Y, or all bank tellers start at Z. That’s not negotiation, that’s take it or leave it. My husband actually has negotiated his compensation a few times Sometime the employer offers a lower salary than my husband wants, and my husband agrees to the lower salary in return for more vacation. Other times,my husband has gotten the salary by agreeing to not take the insurance. That’s negotiation, the back and forth. And BTW , Disney World and Disneyland are unionized, the hotels are unionized, and according to Disney’s website, their employees are represented by 40 different unions. Since this started with me saying the NYPD is not going to be willing to negotiate individually, maybe you could explain why you think they would, taking into account the cost of individually negotiating with over 40,000 people. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/130 "2012-04-22T17:30:42Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The adjuncts tend to be top performers…it’t tends to be the tenured dead wood that hurts students. Sometimes, yes. Adjunct faculty will take any class, any time, get good evals, work like crazy just to hang on to an unstable position, and it still doesn’t do them much good in many cases since they are easily replaced. Even having rehire rights in one’s contract is not a guarantee of anything, especially now with all the budget cuts going on. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/131 "2012-04-22T17:39:19Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Did you mean stellar or less stale? (Honestly, I read it as “stale” at first and wondered if I might be past expiry after all these years. :D) 😃 Yes, “stellar”. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/132 "2012-04-22T17:40:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But please, fee free to defend the practice. You must defend it, because if you can’t, you’ll be admitting that you agree that they were gaming the system and your post to me was an involuntary knee-jerk response. Now, now; you’ve been around long enough to see what we do to posters who rely on this level of rhetoricsl twaddle. It ain’t pretty ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/133 "2012-04-22T17:42:11Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > A high rate of turnover isn’t generally considered to be a good sign in any industry I can think of. I don’t see why a college would be any different in that respect. It depends what is taken as “high”. A low turnover rate isn’t good either. Just look at our elected officials. Turnover is a healthy thing thing. I can’t find it right now, but the President of SAS airlines was of the mind that at any given point in time the bottom 10% of his workforce should be replaced. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/134 "2012-04-22T17:43:40Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Well, yes, to the second point too. But we can’t negotiate a contract without a union. Why not? I’ve negotiated contracts for every job I’ve ever had.. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/135 "2012-04-22T17:44:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why not? I’ve negotiated contracts for every job I’ve ever had.. There is no mechanism for this at the college campuses where I’ve worked. No union = no contract = no negotiations. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/136 "2012-04-22T17:46:55Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Now, now; you’ve been around long enough to see what we do to posters who rely on this level of rhetoricsl twaddle. It ain’t pretty Oh, the old “we”. :roll eyes: Why am I not surprised that someone with your position regarding unions would not think he should fight his own battles. Great performance art, though. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/137 "2012-04-22T17:49:14Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > There is no mechanism for this at the college campuses where I’ve worked. No union = no contract = no negotiations. That’s a big problem. And disgusting, IMO. But I think the real culprit here is the union, who it benefits. Not t let off the hook the administration who want to take the easy way out. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/138 "2012-04-23T04:06:51Z")
So I see magellan01 did not address any of my points in Post#127 - especially the implication that my memory of my work histories are apparently false memories. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/139 "2012-04-23T13:29:15Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So I see magellan01 did not address any of my points in Post#127 Well, why should your Post#127 be different? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121/140 "2012-04-23T15:16:37Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Seriously? Absolutely. Now how about you tell me what seems odd about what you cited from me? > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Have you read any of my posts wherein I describe the difference working in a district with a union and without one? I don’t recall. If you think there’s something you’d like me to cover that I already haven’t, feel free to provide it. I have better things to do than track down all your posts and answer to what I think you think is so important. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So you’re saying that in most years there are plenty of qualified math, science and special education teachers to fill positions. There might be. Depends on where and when. Oh, and if a there is a requirement for a teaching certificate of some kind and how easy it is to acquire one. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Do you realize that you have now completely countered the notion that public employees should NOT be allowed to strike? I have done no such thing. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I believe that both you and Sicks Ate pointed out that many public workers are not easily replacable? You believe incorrectly. Not easy to replace does not necessarily mean that there aren’t people willing and able to do the job. There is also process. Oh and the unions that try to make it impossible to hire anyone who is not a union member. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-good-workers-shouldnt-be-unionized/619121.md?page=8)