# Public Lands, National Monuments, Antiquities Act, and States' Rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316 "2017-04-26T19:16:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/41 "2017-04-26T23:32:41Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I didn’t claim, and neither did you, that _all_ National Monument designations prevent _any_ roads from _ever_ being built. One road prevented from being built is proof enough that your assertion is false. You’ll find that the sentence I wrote can be interpreted both ways, and you chose the ungenerous interpretation. The National Monument designation does not inherently prevent all roads from being built. A particular instance may prevent some types of roads from being built. But this latter case is true for any kind of land designation, from city residential zones to Federal parks, so it would have been pointless to mention. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/42 "2017-04-26T23:32:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think you can imagine the depths of frustration and anger felt by the people here in Utah. We waited 12 fucking _years_ for approval to put in a measly 6-mile ATV loop and then Obama’s Bears Ears proposal gets it squashed. That’s the sort of bullshit bureaucracy we have to put up with when asshats on the coasts want to control the land in our state. after reading all the links that everyone has provided. . .it seems to me that your very own congressional “asshats” dragged their feet on the Public Lands Initiative for almost seven years and couldn’t even get it out of committee. and the main reason that utahans seem to be mad is that the outgoing President used his legal authority and did something about it. The PLI would have been essentially the same as the monument designation. so the fuss seems to be “because, Obama” [QUOTE=[http://fox13now.com/2016/12/28/president-obama-expected-to-designate-bears-ears-national-monument/](http://fox13now.com/2016/12/28/president-obama-expected-to-designate-bears-ears-national-monument/)] Both sides have acknowledged the area needs some measure of protection, but it is the methods of it that have drawn division. Congressmen Rob Bishop and Jason Chaffetz pushed a public lands initiative, opposing the White House’s use of the Antiquities Act. [/QUOTE] and maybe a little racism > [@](#): > > [to manage the monument]announced the creation of a Bears Ears Commission to "ensure that tribal expertise and traditional knowledge help inform the management of the Bears Ears National Monument and help us to best care for its remarkable natural treasures. mc ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/43 "2017-04-26T23:34:24Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Apart from you yourself, party of one, I’m still waiting to see your evidence of the huge number of individual citizens who are clamoring for a change to undo the monuments status of this area. I asked you what sort of evidence you’d consider valid. You didn’t answer. Let’s try this:[Poll: Utahns want Trump to change or undo Bears Ears](http://utahpolicy.com/index.php/features/today-at-utah-policy/13020-poll-utahns-want-trump-to-change-or-undo-bears-ears): ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/44 "2017-04-26T23:39:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I asked you what sort of evidence you’d consider valid. You didn’t answer. Let’s try this:[Poll: Utahns want Trump to change or undo Bears Ears](http://utahpolicy.com/index.php/features/today-at-utah-policy/13020-poll-utahns-want-trump-to-change-or-undo-bears-ears): Not really seeing an overwhelming majority there. I’m glad it’s just an EO with no real force and effect. I guess we’ll see if you get your ATV track or not as things unfold. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/45 "2017-04-26T23:40:58Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > There is substantial federally owned land in Utah. That’s the nature of the beast. I do believe that it should not all be turned into parks and wilderness. But I’m not very supportive, as an American who owns that land, of the idea of stripping all of it of its resources at the expense of its natural beauty. Is it your opinion that the Feds are the only ones that can manage to successfully strike a balance between conservation and economic development? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/46 "2017-04-26T23:42:33Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Not really seeing an overwhelming majority there. Do you see something more than a party of one? Assuming your answer is ‘yes’, then I’ll chalk it up as some progress. > [@Aspenglow](#): > > I’m glad it’s just an EO with no real force and effect. I’d call it something more like “the first step in the process”, but YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/47 "2017-04-26T23:45:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Is it your opinion that the Feds are the only ones that can manage to successfully strike a balance between conservation and economic development? Compared to real estate developers and mining companies? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/48 "2017-04-26T23:48:13Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Compared to real estate developers and mining companies? Yes. How about the state of Utah? There’s a not-insignificant portion of Utah that is owned and managed by state agencies. We’ve got state parks, SITLA lands, etc. Do you imagine it’s all been strip mined or sold off to the highest bidder? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/49 "2017-04-26T23:52:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How about the state of Utah? There’s a not-insignificant portion of Utah that is owned and managed by state agencies. We’ve got state parks, SITLA lands, etc. Do you imagine it’s all been strip mined or sold off to the highest bidder? Than mess up your own land. As **DSYoungEsq** pointed out, Bear Ears belongs to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/50 "2017-04-26T23:59:36Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Than mess up your own land. > As **DSYoungEsq** pointed out, Bear Ears belongs to everyone. And it’ll still “belong to everyone” when it’s no longer a National Monument, just like it did 5 months ago. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/51 "2017-04-27T00:05:14Z")
According to the wiki page, there are “some 109,100 acres of land within the boundaries of the monument are owned by the State of Utah, while 12,600 acres are privately owned” Can’t you build the ATV trail there? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/52 "2017-04-27T00:05:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > And it’ll still “belong to everyone” when it’s no longer a National Monument, just like it did 5 months ago. Then why do you care what it’s designated? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/53 "2017-04-27T00:06:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Certainly if “protecting the area” means prohibiting all economic activity in it, then yes. There’s no “consensus” in San Juan County or Utah that all grazing / mining / drilling / logging / ATVing should cease on these 1.35 million acres. Look, I don’t know much about something that is evidently a local issue for you, but if you’re going to respond to reasonable questions with straw man arguments like these, then what’s the point of this thread? I specifically said that two activities - mining and ATV use (to a lesser degree) - are pretty destructive by nature. And you posted articles that said essentially that protecting Bear Ears was widely supported in the community. I cannot reconcile what you cited earlier - that there’s wide agreement on protection - with your apparent support for pretty harmful activities. It doesn’t make any sense to me, like as if you said that everyone in a town supports gun control and ready availability of automatic firearms, so I seek an explaination. Can you provide one or not? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/54 "2017-04-27T00:21:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > According to the wiki page, there are “some 109,100 acres of land within the boundaries of the monument are owned by the State of Utah, while 12,600 acres are privately owned” > > Can’t you build the ATV trail there? Not if we’re not allowed to build a road from the edge of the monument to those land-locked lands. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/55 "2017-04-27T00:32:10Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Not if we’re not allowed to build a road from the edge of the monument to those land-locked lands. Is that the case? In any event, this [fact sheet](https://www.fs.fed.us/sites/default/files/bear-ears-fact-sheet.pdf) says “The national monument designation will not impact the rights of private landowners within or adjacent to the national monument, including existing access within the national monument boundary” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/56 "2017-04-27T00:36:03Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Look, I don’t know much about something that is evidently a local issue for you, but if you’re going to respond to reasonable questions with straw man arguments like these, then what’s the point of this thread? > > I specifically said that two activities - mining and ATV use (to a lesser degree) - are pretty destructive by nature. And you posted articles that said essentially that protecting Bear Ears was widely supported in the community. > > I cannot reconcile what you cited earlier - that there’s wide agreement on protection - with your apparent support for pretty harmful activities. It doesn’t make any sense to me, like as if you said that everyone in a town supports gun control and ready availability of automatic firearms, so I seek an explaination. Can you provide one or not? Are you talking about these quotes? > [@](#): > > Utah Gov. Gary Herbert, who was also present at the signing, said he expects parts of Bears Ears to remain protected but some borders could be modified. And he noted that the 1.8 million-acre Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument may, too, be made smaller … > [@](#): > > Rep. Chris Stewart, R-Utah, added that he hopes some coal reserves now inside the Bears Ears monument are carved out but that sites sacred to Native Americans are preserved. > > The coal areas, he said, are “not sensitive land. It’s not probably worthy of protection.” There’s obviously a lot of room along the spectrum between “strip mine all the things” and “no resource extraction at all”. Herbert, Stewart, Hatch, and most of the Utah Republicans feel like Bears Ears went too far towards the “no resource extraction at all” side of things. There exists a consensus that there are some sensitive areas within that 1.35 million acres that are worth protecting, and a pretty broad feeling that not all 1.35 million acres need to be off-limits to future mining / development. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/57 "2017-04-27T00:54:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Is that the case? > > In any event, this [fact sheet](https://www.fs.fed.us/sites/default/files/bear-ears-fact-sheet.pdf) says “The national monument designation will not impact the rights of private landowners within or adjacent to the national monument, including > existing access within the national monument boundary” Yes. I’d emphasize the word “existing” from your fact sheet. [Obama’s proclamation](https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2016/12/28/proclamation-establishment-bears-ears-national-monument) said “Any additional roads or trails designated for motorized vehicle use must be for the purposes of public safety or protection of such objects.” If SITLA were to auction off mining rights to a plot of land surrounded on all sides by Bears Ears, and then the purchaser were to request permission to build a road to get to their newly-purchased mining rights, they’d be told “no”. This essentially means that SITLA can’t auction off mining rights on any of its lands that don’t have an already-existing road to it. Ditto with making ATV trails on Utah-owned land within the confines of Bears Ears. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/58 "2017-04-27T00:54:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Not if we’re not allowed to build a road from the edge of the monument to those land-locked lands. Building/maintaining roads to land-locked private areas is a really obvious use of the “public safety” clause that you cited earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/59 "2017-04-27T00:56:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes. I’d emphasize the word “existing” from your fact sheet. [Obama’s proclamation](https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2016/12/28/proclamation-establishment-bears-ears-national-monument) said “Any additional roads or trails designated for motorized vehicle use must be for the purposes of public safety or protection of such objects.” > > If SITLA were to auction off mining rights to a plot of land surrounded on all sides by Bears Ears, and then the purchaser were to request permission to build a road to get to their newly-purchased mining rights, they’d be told “no”. This essentially means that SITLA can’t auction off mining rights on any of its lands that don’t have an already-existing road to it. Ditto with making ATV trails on Utah-owned land within the confines of Bears Ears. Are you saying there are currently no access roads to the Utah and privately owned land located within the monument? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/60 "2017-04-27T01:09:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are you talking about these quotes? I was talking about this quote from Senator Hatch: “The Bears Ears are sacred to local Native American tribes, and the surrounding area is home to thousands of archaeological sites that detail the history of the land’s ancient inhabitants. That these cultural sites deserve protection is beyond dispute.” > [@](#): > > There exists a consensus that there are some sensitive areas within that 1.35 million acres that are worth protecting, and a pretty broad feeling that not all 1.35 million acres need to be off-limits to future mining / development. That clarifies things some. So do they just want to tinker with the edges of the boundaries a little bit? By how much? Like make it 10% smaller? Or like 50% smaller? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316.md?page=4)