# Public Lands, National Monuments, Antiquities Act, and States' Rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316 "2017-04-26T19:16:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/101 "2017-04-28T19:14:10Z")
> [@Section\_Maker\_Jupe](#): > > Not to sidetrack too much, (really enjoying the discussion) but I have lived in SB since 1978. > Tar has been here all the time, (it gets sticky in summer sun, so its much more visible…on everyones feet.) Its from sloppy rigs and poor handling practices, leaky old well heads, like Summerland circa 1899, guys dumping stuff they shouldnt… and also from natural sources. I’ve had bubbles of gassy oil pop next to me at Coal Oil Point when surfing… > > Anecdotes from old timers in the 1940’s was that the beaches often were so fouled you wouldnt want to go anywhere even close to them…(the smell also, its a bit of a foul organic oil smell). When larger amounts of oil were pulled out in the 50’s and 60’s it relieved some of the pressure of the pools underground, and the beaches cleaned up. > > You can break open rocks on the beach and see the oil in them. Tar Pits is a local surf spot with a huge chunk of solid tar just sort of oozing into the ocean. Lots of working rigs here as well, onshore and offshore. Thanks for the mention about the smell. I drove countless times between San Luis Obispo and Ventura Counties for 20 years and remember it well. We had plenty of non-tarry beaches to go to in Morro Bay, Avila and Pismo, so I tended to stick to those during my years in that area. Never forgot all that unpleasant tar on the feet in the times I visited Santa Barbara beaches, though. ---
**Author:** ![1224rattusrattus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ec9cab/32.png) [@1224rattusrattus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1224rattusrattus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/102 "2017-05-07T14:45:30Z")
Is the problem with the Bears Ears designation the fact that it is too large? I took a look on Google Maps and wondered why anyone complained about it because there were no human habitations anywhere near it. But then when I realised that the monument extends over a million acres and includes some small towns I coul see why there is opposition. Has anyone considered gerrymandering the monument to only include the wilderness areas? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/103 "2017-05-08T03:00:31Z")
> [@1224rattusrattus](#): > > Is the problem with the Bears Ears designation the fact that it is too large? I took a look on Google Maps and wondered why anyone complained about it because there were no human habitations anywhere near it. But then when I realised that the monument extends over a million acres and includes some small towns I coul see why there is opposition. Has anyone considered gerrymandering the monument to only include the wilderness areas? Sounds like Trump and Zinke are considering that now, among other options. And yes, the size of it is a significant component of the complaints. For comparison’s sake, all five of Utah’s national parks combined are less than a million acres. Even Grand Canyon National Park in neighboring Arizona is smaller than Bears Ears. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/104 "2017-06-14T19:03:40Z")
Just an update. Zinke’s recommendation is to shrink Bears Ears. [SL Trib: Zinke recommends diminishing size of Bears Ears but says area ‘merits some degree of protection’](http://www.sltrib.com/news/5393496-155/sources-zinke-to-urge-diminishing-size?fullpage=1) [NYT: Interior Secretary Recommends Shrinking Borders of Bears Ears Monument](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/12/us/interior-secretary-public-lands-utah-bears-ears.html) ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/105 "2017-06-14T19:45:26Z")
I think we could solve a lot of problems if the feds started paying taxes to the local counties for federally controlled public land. You could set up a sliding scale based on the protections applied. Forest Service land managed for multiple use would be relatively cheap. Wilderness protections would cost a lot more. The feds could also get tax breaks based on visitation numbers. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/106 "2017-06-14T19:59:11Z")
I know this was an important issue for you. how do you feel about the recommendation? mc ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/107 "2017-06-14T20:21:29Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > I know this was an important issue for you. how do you feel about the recommendation? > > mc They recommendation is still quite vague, with no specific acreage or maps or anything, but generally I’m happy about it. It’s trying to get back to the original intent of the Antiquities Act. FWIW, it seems that most of the conservatives in Utah are feeling pretty good about the recommendations. Governor Herbert said “[I applaud the ​secretary for his balanced and responsible proposal.](http://utahpolicy.com/index.php/features/featured-articles/13479-gov-herbert-statement-on-sec-zinke-interim-report-on-the-bears-ears-national-monument)” The San Juan County Commission said “[Secretary Zinke has restored some hope](http://stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2017/06/13/mgk-san-juan-county-commission-others-respond-to-zinkes-bears-ears-recommendation/#.WUGZfWjytGo)” and Senator Hatch said “[This is an unquestionable victory for Utah.](https://www.hatch.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/releases?ID=ABB5E6D8-B3B6-4C41-9662-F91A94EC5BA5)” ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/108 "2017-06-14T20:31:29Z")
> [@sitchensis](#): > > I think we could solve a lot of problems if the feds started paying taxes to the local counties for federally controlled public land. You could set up a sliding scale based on the protections applied. Forest Service land managed for multiple use would be relatively cheap. Wilderness protections would cost a lot more. The feds could also get tax breaks based on visitation numbers. This makes exactly no sense. First of all, the federal government bears the cost of maintaining roads and other infrastructure on federally-controlled lands as well as providing emergency services such as law enforcement, medical response, and firefighting far in excess of what local governments could support. Another is that federal lands are typical a revenue source for local communities and states in the form of tourism revenue, sales and lodging taxes, managed resource use, et cetera. And federally managed lands typically exceed municipal and often even state boundaries. The notion that somehow municipalities will benefit by diverting federal money for them to manage and use as they see fit whether it is beneficial to management of the land is farcical as is a his notion of creating some arbitrary schedule of tax breaks and inducements. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/109 "2017-06-14T20:40:02Z")
The federal government already gives PILT (Payment in Lieu of Taxes) money, at least usually. > **[Payments in Lieu of Taxes](https://www.doi.gov/pilt)** > > PILT payments help local governments carry out such vital services as firefighting and police protection, construction of public schools and roads, and search-and-rescue operations. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/110 "2017-08-18T21:18:26Z")
[QUOTE=Loser Donald] Sad to see the history and culture of our great country being ripped apart with the removal of our beautiful statues and monuments. You… — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) Aug. 17, 2017 …can’t change history, but you can learn from it. Robert E Lee, Stonewall Jackson - who’s next, Washington, Jefferson? So foolish! Also… — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) Aug. 17, 2017 [/QUOTE] If we could just get the NAZI’S into camping, maybe we could save our beloved national monuments. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/111 "2017-08-18T21:39:08Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > If we could just get the NAZI’S into camping, maybe we could save our beloved national monuments. Did you read about this in [the Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/08/trumps-monument-mystery/537216/) or [Slate](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2017/08/trump_defends_racist_bronze_relics_he_attacks_national_monuments.html)? The Trump administration’s monument review is set to end next week, although I suspect the prospects of immediate action are rather low. [QUOTE=National Geographic] [President Donald Trump’s review of large national monuments is set to end next week. Last April, he dispatched Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke to inspect 27 monuments by August 25, and determine which, if any, are too big.](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/08/national-monuments-under-review-trump-interior-maps/) [/QUOTE] BTW, are you in Idaho? If so, are you in the path of the eclipse? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/112 "2017-08-24T23:16:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke said he’s recommending that none of 27 national monuments carved from wilderness and ocean and under review by the Trump administration be eliminated. But there would be changes to a “handful,” he said. > > Zinke told The Associated Press that unspecified boundary adjustments for some monuments carved out of wilderness and ocean over the past four decades will be included in the recommendations he planned to give President Donald Trump on Thursday. None of the sites would revert to new ownership, he said, while public access for uses such as hunting, fishing or grazing would be maintained or restored. He also spoke of protecting tribal interests and historical land grants, pointing to monuments in New Mexico, where Hispanic ranchers have opposed two monuments proclaimed by President Barack Obama. > > Zinke declined to say whether portions of the monuments would be opened up to oil and gas drilling, mining, logging and other industries for which Trump has advocated. [http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/24/zinke-national-monuments-241988](http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/24/zinke-national-monuments-241988) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2017, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/113 "2017-08-25T01:23:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I asked you what sort of evidence you’d consider valid. You didn’t answer. Let’s try this:[Poll: Utahns want Trump to change or undo Bears Ears](http://utahpolicy.com/index.php/features/today-at-utah-policy/13020-poll-utahns-want-trump-to-change-or-undo-bears-ears): [People in Utah were upset in 1996 too](http://www.nytimes.com/1996/10/13/us/new-reserve-stirs-animosities-in-utah.html?mcubz=0) but I notice that in your poll, a majority now support leaving Grand Staircase-Escalante the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/114 "2017-10-27T20:06:58Z")
Updating this thread: > [@](#): > > President Trump informed Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) Friday that he will shrink Bears Ears National Monument, a 1.35-million-acre protected area in southeast Utah that is prized by many tribal leaders but opposed by several state and federal Republican officials. > > “I’m approving the Bears Ears recommendation for you, Orrin,” Trump told the senator in a phone call Friday morning, according to Hatch’s office, just before Hatch stepped onstage for an event on women in technology in Utah. > **[Trump says he will shrink Bears Ears National Monument, a sacred tribal site...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/10/27/trump-says-he-will-shrink-bears-ears-national-monument-a-sacred-tribal-site-in-utah/)** > > President Trump informed Sen. Orrin G. Hatch on Friday that he will reduce the size of the protected area prized by many tribal leaders but opposed by several state and federal Republican officials. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2017, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/115 "2017-11-29T20:54:48Z")
Looks like this is finally scheduled to happen on Monday: [WaPo - Trump to visit Utah on Monday to announce his plans to shrink Bears Ears, Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monuments](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/11/28/trump-to-visit-utah-on-monday-to-announce-his-plans-to-shrink-bears-ears-grand-staircase-escalante-national-monuments/) There are also some indications of how much shrinking might be done: > [@](#): > > While administration officials have not announced how much Trump plans to reduce either monument, they have privately indicated he intends to shave hundreds of thousands of acres off both. > > … > > The president will reduce Bears Ears by more than 1 million acres, Interior officials have informed multiple individuals who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak on the record. And Ron Dean, an aide to Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah), testified before the Utah Legislature’s Commission for the Stewardship of Public Lands this month that “Grand Staircase will probably be somewhere between 700,000 acres and 1.2 million” under the revised designation. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/116 "2017-12-04T21:56:41Z")
As expected, Trump signed a pair of executive orders today in Utah reducing [Bears Ears](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/12/04/presidential-proclamation-modifying-bears-ears-national-monument) and [Grand Staircase-Escalante](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/12/04/presidential-proclamation-modifying-grand-staircase-escalante-national) national monuments: > [@](#): > > [President Donald Trump shaved some 2 million acres from the Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante national monuments Monday, arguing it fulfills a campaign promise to listen to Americans who felt disenfranchised by previous administrations. > > In an executive order, Trump split the two monuments into five and dramatically reduced their sizes, leaving Bears Ears as two separate areas: Shah Jaa at 129,980 acres and Indian Creek at 71,896 acres. In total, the two comprise 201,876 acres, far short of the 1.35 million acres that President Barack Obama named last December.]([Trump greeted by cheers and protests as he visits Utah, trims 2 million acres from Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante national monuments](http://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2017/12/04/trump-is-coming-to-utah-to-perform-dramatic-feat-monday-make-big-national-monuments-mostly-disappear/)) ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2017, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/117 "2017-12-04T23:13:12Z")
I used to live in Utah (Cedar City) and I’m not too happy about it. I would like to see the beauty of Utah preserved. ---
**Author:** ![ThisOneGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@ThisOneGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisOneGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/118 "2017-12-05T03:35:22Z")
I thought the monument was too large, but I’m not totally happy with it either. Parts I think need the extra protection include most of Cedar Mesa and Grand Gulch. Most of the former and all of the latter ended up outside. Also wonder how the other four tribes feel about giving that part a Navajo name. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/119 "2017-12-05T03:39:47Z")
> [@ThisOneGuy](#): > > I thought the monument was too large, but I’m not totally happy with it either. Parts I think need the extra protection include most of Cedar Mesa and Grand Gulch. Most of the former and all of the latter ended up outside. > \*\* > Also wonder how the other four tribes feel about giving that part a Navajo name\*\*. Who was there first/who decided the name? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2017, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316/120 "2017-12-05T13:06:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > As expected, Trump signed a pair of executive orders today in Utah reducing [Bears Ears](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/12/04/presidential-proclamation-modifying-bears-ears-national-monument) and [Grand Staircase-Escalante](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/12/04/presidential-proclamation-modifying-grand-staircase-escalante-national) national monuments: Now, let the strip mining begin! JOBS! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-lands-national-monuments-antiquities-act-and-states-rights/785316.md?page=7)