# Public School Changes; What would you do? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 4, 2004, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-school-changes-what-would-you-do/222581 "2004-01-04T04:03:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-school-changes-what-would-you-do/222581/61 "2004-01-07T15:17:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Grelby \* > \*\*You’re average large high school is an administrative and bureacratic disaster. Principals, vice-principals, office managers, dog-walkers, and so on and so forth. Most schools are inefficient to a degree disproportionate to the sounds. \*\* Your average school is a bureaucratic disaster because the law says it has to be. Mrs. Kunilou has to fill out forms for two school districts, the state department of education and the U.S. Department of Education. She needs to prepare an individual plan for every student who receives special services. She’s required to keep records of her disciplinary actions against students. She’s mandated to report when she suspects a student has been abused, which requires dealing with another state department, and which also means she’d better have some pretty good documentation in case the parent decides to sue her. Then of course, she needs to hang on to her lesson plans, her grade reports andf so on. All these regulations and forms are supposedly needed for the protection of the student, not for the convenience of the teacher (or the parent, for that matter.) The school itself has more reports to make and forms to fill out, and the school district has even more. So when you say schools are inefficient, bureaucratic messes, start by cleaning out the overlapping laws, rules, policies, guidelines, safeguards, objectives, programs, regulations, codes, etc. etc. etc. Then we can talk about eliminating the staff it takes to keep ahead of the paperwork. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-school-changes-what-would-you-do/222581/62 "2004-01-07T15:52:44Z")
Note: I began working on this post yesterday afternoon, when **kunilou** ’s multipoint post was the last in the thread. I was pulled away from the computer and just now got back and I’m trying to catch up now, so please bear with this if it’s just a little meandering. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by phouka \* > \*\*Things I’d Change: > > 1. Revamp school funding. Too many kids get little to no education because their schools are crumbling and the district can only afford to hire emergency credentialed schlubs. All schools should be funded to a basic level - safe environment, adequate facilities, qualified teachers. After that, communities can pitch in whatever the like to hire and buy extras. \*\* I agreed with this right up until the last sentence. In keeping with what **Kunilou** and **Angel of the Lord** posted, there are schools where basic resources are scarcities. This is an appalling state and there should be no distinction between communities which could lead to having three separate school districts in one county, for instance, where one set of students is incapable of bringing home their textbooks because there aren’t enough for every kid to be assigned one, one where the school board is fighting about whether the capital improvement monies should go to more athletic equipment or more computers and another where the _student_ parking lot was filled with Audis, BMWs and expensive SUVs yet a special pilot program was providing **free** laptops and Palm Pilots to every kid. Those are three actual examples from the Pittsburgh area from when I was there and teaching future teachers. Were I Queen of the Universe, there would be no difference in funding across school districts, be they community districts or countywide districts. Kids have no say in the circumstances of their births or upbringings, nor about where their parents choose to live. They don’t make the money, they don’t buy the houses. Because Tommy’s dad is a corporate lawyer and can live in a froofroo suburb doesn’t mean that he deserves to get a better education in a nicer building with more resources available to him than Davy does because Davy’s dad died and his mom is the janitor who cleans Tommy’s dad’s office. The most wretched phrase I know is “We’re moving to X because they have better schools.” These are mandatory, public accomodations. How do we all simply go along with the knowledge that we’re now perpetuating a different standard of “separate but equal” that’s no longer based upon race (though largely on economic strata) and is just as unequal as race segregated schools ever were? There is no reason why teachers should be able to district shop for better pay and benefits, meaning that better teachers are bound to end up in more affluent (typically suburban) districts. There is no reason why any child anywhere in this nation should be unable to go to school in a safe, well-maintained buildling with an actual gym and actual hot food cafeteria that serves nutritious meals. There is no reason why, in the era of $600 Gateways and Dells advertised on television every minute of the day that there should be a single school in this country that doesn’t have sufficient computers for every single student. There is absolutely no reason why any teacher should have to outlay hundreds of dollars from their own pocket in order to purchase actual instructional materials for their classrooms. As a small-l libertarian and a capital-R Republican, my solution to this problem is quite hard to believe, hard to swallow, but I think it’s absolutely necessary. Keep the school districts. That’s fine. If every little suburb and community wants to have their own schools, fine. And let every community set their own tax levels. Also fine. But all the money? Goes to the state. And from the state, the money is distributed. The basic operating budget would provide the exact same dollar figure per student to every school throughout the state. Every school in need of textbooks and basic supplies would have that money budgeted to them immediately, as every school would have to meet materials parity annually. Capital improvements monies would be divided into technology, basic facilities, extra facilities and “other” categories and for first ten-fifteen years, they would be distributed based largely on the severity of need, with basic facilities and technology needs given greatest weight. As an aside, **chcoco** , I’m curious, what _did_ you teach? ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-school-changes-what-would-you-do/222581/63 "2004-01-07T18:03:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rubystreak \* > \*\* > > It is an actual, scientific fact that teens need more sleep than adults, upward of 9 hours per night, unlike adults, who need about 8. That’s not laziness, it’s body chemistry. It’s also natural for them to want to go to bed later (11pm or after) and sleep later in the morning. Thus, getting up at 8am and being to school at 9 would be far more salutary for them than the current norm. > > As they get older, people apparently will naturally want to go to bed a bit earlier, and needing only 8 hours of sleep, will be able to get up earlier and function. It’s really not fair to expect teens to keep a schedule that is actually, biologically bad for them. It also happens to be bad for me, so I heartily sympathize with them on this one. > \*\* Not only that, but having the high school kids get out of school later in the day cuts down on unsupervised time when they are more vulnerable to making bad decisions. I’d actually advocate having them go in at like 9:00 or 9:30, maybe even 10:00, and get out closer to 5:00 or 5:30. ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-school-changes-what-would-you-do/222581/64 "2004-01-07T19:49:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TeaElle \* > \*\*The basic operating budget would provide the exact same dollar figure per student to every school throughout the state. \*\* But if you tie it to the number of students, you’re going to have cases where administrators don’t want to expel troublemakers and such, because they lose funding that way. I remember some Dopers complaining about it in another thread. However, if you/we actually improve the funding situation, then maybe they won’t be so desperate for another few thousand dollars… Asked and answered my own objection! ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-school-changes-what-would-you-do/222581/65 "2004-01-07T21:47:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rubystreak \* > I had a star track athlete spit at me-- TWICE!-- and not even get after-school detention for it because “that would prevent him from going to a meet.” The bastard should have been expelled. This just shows how insanely sports are worshipped. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by chcoco_ > Remove sports in an age when most middle school children can’t even run around the track one time. Children are the most over weight of any country. And as we all know, sports have been **so** effective in preventing obesity in the general population. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-school-changes-what-would-you-do/222581/66 "2004-01-07T21:59:45Z")
**GMRyujin** : My idea is staggered scheduling. Some teachers come in at 7 and leave at 2, some 8-3, some 9-4, etc. Kids and teachers could choose classes that suit their desires and needs best. This, however, would never happen. Why? Because the bus schedules do not permit it. There is no way a school bus could run that many times a day, so my idea is down the crapper. **AnimistDragon** : I agree with just about everything you said. As a teacher, I too hate pep rallies. Why doesn’t the literary art magazine staff, the Science Club, and the newspaper get a pep rally? It really highlights the favoritism shown to sports. Ditto on the money spent on sports equipment and jerseys while the lit mag and theatre kids have to sell chocolate bars. Not fair, and perpetuating a very dangerous class system in schools. I also heartily agree about dress code, but in my school we are trying to enforce it more equally. I cannot see what the problem is with trenchcoats; did Columbine really ruin this fine fashion choice for everyone? All your ideas for things that should be taught are great. I agree that some frank talk about credit (esp. credit cards: when I taught seniors I gave them all a List of Things To Be Careful Of In the Real World, and credit cards were #1), taxes, car and home repair. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-school-changes-what-would-you-do/222581/67 "2004-01-07T22:22:53Z")
**Rubystreak** : Your staggered schedule idea would work well in urban schools where kids use public transportation. It could also work well in schools with strong parental involvement where carpooling situations could be set up for kids who cannot be on a school bus. (I’m skitchy about kids driving other kids if they’re not siblings.) The transportation problem could also by solved by using smaller, more fuel efficient busses for more frequent trips rather than the big 40-student, diesel guzzling monsters. Transportation concerns shouldn’t nix progressive and positive education improvements. ---
**Author:** ![Grelby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a5b964/32.png) [@Grelby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grelby)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-school-changes-what-would-you-do/222581/68 "2004-01-08T00:33:50Z")
**doreen** , that sounds like less of a function of small school size than unimaginative and uninteresting course offerings. With a school of about 500 students all able to choose classes, there should be plenty of variety in the offerings from year to year. Out of all 360 students at the school I attend, only about 80-100 have the freedom to choose classes, and we have an incredible array of interesting course offerings to choose from each semester. To be fair, the sheer volume is limited: very few courses come up every semester every year, which can be disappointing at times. **kunilou** , you raise a strong point. I’m gratified that I managed to be coherent enough at 3:00 AM to say anything worth quoting, so it’s no surprise that I missed that important fact. Yes, schools are strangled through law and policy. However, I still believe that the situation gets dramatically worse as the size of the school increases\*. A smaller population allows for a lighter workload and more cohesion within the school and administration. \*this is totally anecdotal and unscientific, supported only by my first-hand observations and those of faculty both at the school I attend and elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-school-changes-what-would-you-do/222581/69 "2004-01-08T03:02:15Z")
> [@](#): > > doreen, that sounds like less of a function of small school size than unimaginative and uninteresting course offerings. With a school of about 500 students all able to choose classes, there should be plenty of variety in the offerings from year to year. Out of all 360 students at the school I attend, only about 80-100 have the freedom to choose classes, and we have an incredible array of interesting course offerings to choose from each semester. To be fair, the sheer volume is limited: very few courses come up every semester every year, which can be disappointing at times. I think you misunderstood. I wasn’t talking about different course offerings from year to year- sure, a small school can do that. I was talking about the volume - five or ten different options being offered _at the same time_, all of which fufilled the requirements for ,say, ninth grade English . And not the same options each quarter- some were repeated, but I would say there were at least 15 different options per year per grade. For example I might have been taking British romantic poetry, while my best friend was taking journalism, another friend was taking speech, another was taking science fiction and fantasy and yet another was taking Shakespeare. With over 1000 freshmen, my school had between twenty-five and thirty sections of ninth grade English. My daughter’s school has five or six sections in each grade- they clearly can’t offer ten options, although perhaps they could offer two. Same thing with languages- my daughter’s school offers French and Spanish. There are two ninth grade French classes . Everyone else takes Spanish. I don’t think expanding the language selection would be feasible - you’d probably end up splitting the forty or so currently taking French among two or three languages . But with a freshman class of 1000, even if 70 pecent take Spanish, that still leaves 300 interested in a different language and perhaps there would be enough interest to justify offering four languages in addition to Spanish. Not saying there’s anything wrong with small schools- just that there are advantages and disadvantages to both large and small. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-school-changes-what-would-you-do/222581.md?page=3)