# Public Schools: Strict Traditional Education vs Citizen Development **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 10, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-schools-strict-traditional-education-vs-citizen-development/560233 "2010-11-10T22:20:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-schools-strict-traditional-education-vs-citizen-development/560233/41 "2010-11-21T17:37:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not really clear on what you’re talking about. I don’t know what age of kids you are talking about but Shakespeare did not live in a world with computers, lasers and hydrogen bombs. A vampire bunny that sucks juice out of vegetables? **ROFLMAO** I would have thought that was silly when I was 9. I was reading this: **Star Surgeon** , by Alan Nourse > **[The Project Gutenberg eBook of Star Surgeon, by Alan E. Nourse.](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/18492/18492-h/18492-h.htm)** After that I was learning more about science as a result of SF books then from my grade school teachers. Of course we didn’t have carry around computers then. Science fiction has gotten more literary since then. Plenty of SF readers complain about hard SF. **The Two Faces of Tomorrow** by James P. Hogan is far better then \*\*Neuromancer \*\*by William Gibson but it is the latter that you will hear about the most. I had to come up with the money to buy what I couldn’t find in the library and I was upset when the price of books went from 50 to 60 cents. :smack: Now they are $8. But this one is free. **The Year When Stardust Fell** , by Raymond F. Jones > **[The Project Gutenberg eBook of The Year When Stardust Fell, by Raymond F. Jones.](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33660/33660-h/33660-h.htm)** So one of these: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/SgGSlz_-34E/hqdefault.jpg "CVS Sylvania Netbook - Review by AF Computers") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgGSlz_-34E) and Project Gutenberg can bring those 1960s prices back. LOL One gigabyte can store more than 1000 books. That review does not suggest using the device as an e-book reader and audio book player, but those functions alone could make it more than worth the money. psik ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-schools-strict-traditional-education-vs-citizen-development/560233/42 "2010-11-21T23:48:13Z")
I’m afraid, **psik** , that unless your point is that Shakespeare is outdated, silly books shouldn’t be silly, and you’re really smart because you read hard science fiction, then your point escapes me. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-schools-strict-traditional-education-vs-citizen-development/560233/43 "2010-11-22T02:42:55Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It’s not a matter of a few problem kids. They ALL have to be taught how to stand in line, wait their turn, think before they speak, play nice, etc, and once learned, these things have to be reinforced. As a teacher, I’ve learned that classroom management never ever stops: it’s not about getting the kids perfectly trained and then coasting. They will all revert to their feral state if you aren’t consciously reminding them of the norms you want to keep. Well, the issue is the kids who don’t learn it quickly - those kids clearly need some extra help, so why not give it to them after school? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-schools-strict-traditional-education-vs-citizen-development/560233/44 "2010-11-22T03:07:31Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Well, the issue is the kids who don’t learn it quickly - those kids clearly need some extra help, so why not give it to them after school? NONE of them learn it quickly. It doesn’t magically stick. You have to keep reinforcing these skills everyday for all of them. The best kid in the world will start backsliding on things like tooth brushing and room cleaning if the parent stops mentioning it. Playing nice and following classroom conventions work the exact same way. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-schools-strict-traditional-education-vs-citizen-development/560233/45 "2010-11-22T03:13:59Z")
**Manda Jo** , you make it sound as though all kids need an equal level of instruction in classroom skills by the teacher–and I just don’t think that’s so. Donna might come from a home in which mom and dad have emphasized school social skills from infancy, so Donna knows to raise her hand and wait politely and share and say please and thank you and excuse me. Steve might come from a home with six older siblings and parents in and out of jail, and he’s learned that if you want attention, you need to come on loud, fast, and angry. If I have a classroom full of Donnas, I’ll spend most of my time teaching the subject. If I have a classroom full of Steves, I’ll spend much more of my time teaching those school social skills. Sure, none of them learn it quickly–but some of them learn it at home. ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-schools-strict-traditional-education-vs-citizen-development/560233/46 "2010-11-22T03:27:42Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It’s not a matter of a few problem kids. They ALL have to be taught how to stand in line, wait their turn, think before they speak, play nice, etc, and once learned, these things have to be reinforced. As a teacher, I’ve learned that classroom management never ever stops: it’s not about getting the kids perfectly trained and then coasting. They will all revert to their feral state if you aren’t consciously reminding them of the norms you want to keep. If our teachers think Lord of the Flies was non-fiction then I’m starting to understand why American education is as bad as it is. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-schools-strict-traditional-education-vs-citizen-development/560233/47 "2010-11-22T06:10:43Z")
> [@godix](#): > > If our teachers think Lord of the Flies was non-fiction then I’m starting to understand why American education is as bad as it is. No, it’s just that acceptable behavior at home with maybe four or five people is different than acceptable behavior in a classroom with twenty to twenty-five people. Even the best parents don’t always teach classroom behavior. For example, waiting in line. Few parents teach their children how to wait in line simply because there’s never an occasion at home to do it. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-schools-strict-traditional-education-vs-citizen-development/560233/48 "2010-11-22T11:44:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **Manda Jo** , you make it sound as though all kids need an equal level of instruction in classroom skills by the teacher–and I just don’t think that’s so. Donna might come from a home in which mom and dad have emphasized school social skills from infancy, so Donna knows to raise her hand and wait politely and share and say please and thank you and excuse me. Steve might come from a home with six older siblings and parents in and out of jail, and he’s learned that if you want attention, you need to come on loud, fast, and angry. If I have a classroom full of Donnas, I’ll spend most of my time teaching the subject. If I have a classroom full of Steves, I’ll spend much more of my time teaching those school social skills. > > Sure, none of them learn it quickly–but some of them learn it at home. I agree, but Sateryn76 seems to think that most kids could learn all those things in the first hour of the first day, and in my experience it just isn’t like that. It’s the subtle, steady reinforcement that keeps a class in order, and while you don’t have to spend a lot of time on it any day, you have to spend some time on it every day. Socialization isn’t simply “teaching a lesson”–it’s establishing a culture. I mean, I teach junior and senior AP classes and I still have to give kids looks to get them to quiet down, I still have to occasionally pull an otherwise good kid aside and tell him he’s being a jerk, I still have to tell them not to call people “gay”, I still have to point out candy wrappers they drop on the floor–non-educators seem to think that it’s a matter of One Big Talk, and IME those are pretty useless. It’s a thousand little nudges, and it’s not just a handful of “bad kids”–it’s basically good kids who forget themselves. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-schools-strict-traditional-education-vs-citizen-development/560233/49 "2010-11-22T11:45:42Z")
> [@godix](#): > > If our teachers think Lord of the Flies was non-fiction then I’m starting to understand why American education is as bad as it is. I was being hyperbolic for humorous effect. My point is just that consistent reinforcement is required to establish norms anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-schools-strict-traditional-education-vs-citizen-development/560233/50 "2010-11-22T11:51:13Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I agree, but Sateryn76 seems to think that most kids could learn all those things in the first hour of the first day, and in my experience it just isn’t like that. It’s the subtle, steady reinforcement that keeps a class in order, and while you don’t have to spend a lot of time on it any day, you have to spend some time on it every day. Socialization isn’t simply “teaching a lesson”–it’s establishing a culture. I mean, I teach junior and senior AP classes and I still have to give kids looks to get them to quiet down, I still have to occasionally pull an otherwise good kid aside and tell him he’s being a jerk, I still have to tell them not to call people “gay”, I still have to point out candy wrappers they drop on the floor–non-educators seem to think that it’s a matter of One Big Talk, and IME those are pretty useless. It’s a thousand little nudges, and it’s not just a handful of “bad kids”–it’s basically good kids who forget themselves. Okay, I see what you’re saying, and I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-schools-strict-traditional-education-vs-citizen-development/560233/51 "2010-11-22T14:13:42Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I agree, but Sateryn76 seems to think that most kids could learn all those things in the first hour of the first day, and in my experience it just isn’t like that. It’s the subtle, steady reinforcement that keeps a class in order, and while you don’t have to spend a lot of time on it any day, you have to spend some time on it every day. Socialization isn’t simply “teaching a lesson”–it’s establishing a culture. I mean, I teach junior and senior AP classes and I still have to give kids looks to get them to quiet down, I still have to occasionally pull an otherwise good kid aside and tell him he’s being a jerk, I still have to tell them not to call people “gay”, I still have to point out candy wrappers they drop on the floor–non-educators seem to think that it’s a matter of One Big Talk, and IME those are pretty useless. It’s a thousand little nudges, and it’s not just a handful of “bad kids”–it’s basically good kids who forget themselves. Not at all - I’m aware that teachers have to fight the good fight everyday, just as good parents do. I was attempting to compare it to something like good grammar or basic critical thinking skills, which are something that gets practiced every day in all contexts - some kids need extra help with those, and often get after school help. Same idea with manners and acceptable social behavior - some kids need extra help, and if they can get it outside the classroom, then that saves in class time for more appropriate (IMO) educational work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/public-schools-strict-traditional-education-vs-citizen-development/560233.md?page=2)