Public vs. private vs. homeschooling

Great Debates
61

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
There are all sorts of competing pedagogues that are anathema in the mainstream American school system. Rote learning is out. Repetition is out. Spelling and handwriting are so far out they’re invisible (my kid hasn’t had a spelling or handwriting course since second grade, and it shows.) Phonics goes in and out. Whole learning, Lab learning, book learning. More and more, schools are limiting not only content of what’s taught, but pedagogy - HOW things are taught. If your kid doesn’t learn well by those methods, he’s fucked. I’d prefer more flexibility and variety within the system, but I don’t think the level of flexibility and variety that would be optimal is possible within the system.

[/quote]

My daughter, who is now a sophmore in college, had plenty of spelling. No handwriting - but, come to think of it, when is the last time you did significant handwriting for someone else? I had lots in school (it didn’t take :slight_smile: ) but only use cursive to scrawl my name these days.

I spent lots of time listening to how things should be taught, and the buzzword in our system wad differentiation- approaching each kid as an individual. For instance, kids who got all their spelling words right on the pretest shouldn’t have to do the busywork to learn them, but get more interesting assignments. But differentiation is hard for big classes, and even harder when “tracking” is considered a no-no. I went through school tracked, and I was hardly ever bored, thanks to being in class with lots of other smart kids.

All great ideas, but they take time and money. I’m all for making it easier for subject matter experts to teach, but can we afford them? I heard on NPR the other day that nursing teachers in community colleges can expect to make only 50% of what they’d make in a hospital.

As for expertise guaranteeing teaching ability, I direct you to probably 90% of teaching assistants in universities today.

Ah. Bingo!

We didn’t homeschool our kids (except for one year when my wife took them on an RV trip around the country for a book) but we did make sure they went on lots of factory tours. My wife worked from home, and was able to ramp her work as the kids got older, which helped a lot. I think parents with kids in public schools can do a lot of enrichment without homeschooling.

I’d hope any parent saying homeschooling is right for a kid now in public school is at least heavily involved with the kid’s homework, and has read or at least skimmed the kid’s textbooks.

62

GL Wasteful, I think you make some good points. However, the CPS school district actually spends quite a bit per pupil, and increased spending does not correlate with better test scores, student retention or satisfaction.

And when I say it’s not possible, I think it’s literally not possible. Think about our hypothetical field trip for our assembly line project. We have at least three different destinations, with, ideally, extended conversations with a number of people. If I’m arranging that trip for a class of 30, I have to get school busses and arrange their schedules. I have to get insurance. I have to put my kids into small groups, assign adult supervision, count noses a dozen times an hour, wrangle a large group, wait for 36 people to use the bathroom at least twice…and there’s zero opportunity for each kid to have a private conversation and get their particular questions answered or their ideas explored. We’re going to have to rush through to get everyone to Burger King on time for lunch and the only thing the kids are going to remember is the bus ride. Meanwhile, they’ve missed a day of instruction in all their other classes.

If it’s me and my two kids, we can go any day, any time. We can go to places and speak to people who aren’t set up for large groups. We can take our time, ask questions, speculate, take tangents as they come. We can go back tomorrow, or reschedule if we get tired. My own vehicle and health insurance will suffice, and I’ve paid for it already.

My son went to Springfield two weeks ago with half the eighth grade (about 300 students). When I asked him what they saw, he mentioned Lincoln’s grave and “uh…that place where they make the laws?” Oh, and the bus. It was a charter bus, and there was a bathroom in it! And movies! They watched four movies! And the seats were really comfortable! And there was no pushing like on a regular bus 'cause the seats were like in a car, only taller and it was warm and not smelly and…

While I’m thrilled he now knows the wonder that is chartered busing, I with he had learned a little more about, y’know, our state capital. :rolleyes:

OTOH, my homeschooling friend, her partner and her two kids went down and spent 4 days in Springfield in August. They meant to go for a weekend, but enjoyed it so much and found so much more to do that they stayed until Tuesday night. They spent hours at a dozen or more sites, actually talking to and learning from the people there, watching school group after school group being shepherded in and out again without learning more than “this is where they make the laws.”

This spring, we’re going back with them. I don’t care if I have to pull the kid out of school for a couple of days to do it, but I wish I didn’t have to.
As for the elementary vs. higher ed, I think it doesn’t matter much. I think even things like letters and numbers are, for some kids, better learned experientially. Or by rote, or by singing them or dancing them or whatever. The point is that I can look at one or two kids and use their methods - I can’t do that for 30 kids in 40 minutes, no matter how much money you throw at me. And while it’s true that they’ll have to learn flexibility in methods to work well with other eventually, they need a strong foundation in the fundamentals first. I can teach them other methods of learning as well.

My last job was as a small college Administrator/Receptionist/Office Goddess, and I had to do quite a bit of handwriting - printing or cursive was irrelevant. But if my boss couldn’t read my phone messages, or the students read my handwritten memos, then I wasn’t doing my job. I’m not insisting that the kid write in gorgeous Victorian fluidity, but readability would be nice. It’s still a lot more practical to write: “Call your babysitter at the class break!” by hand than open a Word document and print it out.

Where did you guys find the time? I’m not being snarky, I’m seriously wondering. By the time homework is done, it’s time for dinner and after dinner we’re exhausted. I use weekends as well as I can, but there’s just not enough time.

But I agree it may not be an either-or proposition. Like I said, we’re going back to Springfield on our own in the spring, but I know he’s going to have to scramble to make up the schoolwork he misses if we go during a weekday. I can see why homeschooling would be appealing on that front.

63

[QUOTE=GLWasteful]
I would think that the former would be considerably better than the latter.

[/quote]

well…some stuff on the history channel is pretty good. Some of it is crap. But the boy is pretty good and looking something and realizing its nonsense. He watched the presidential debates with me for instance…and asked if we could move to another country.

He never had anything to talk about with his age appropriate peers…he didn’t talk to them and all and they mostly just made of fun of him because he was differant.

64

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
And when I say it’s not possible, I think it’s literally not possible. Think about our hypothetical field trip for our assembly line project. We have at least three different destinations, with, ideally, extended conversations with a number of people. If I’m arranging that trip for a class of 30, I have to get school busses and arrange their schedules. I have to get insurance. I have to put my kids into small groups, assign adult supervision, count noses a dozen times an hour, wrangle a large group, wait for 36 people to use the bathroom at least twice…and there’s zero opportunity for each kid to have a private conversation and get their particular questions answered or their ideas explored. We’re going to have to rush through to get everyone to Burger King on time for lunch and the only thing the kids are going to remember is the bus ride. Meanwhile, they’ve missed a day of instruction in all their other classes.
[/quote]

And for the most part I agree with you. That’s why higher ed classes have guest speakers. Well, in my district, anyway. There are tradeoffs no matter what, and everybody has to work within their constraints. For public school teachers those constraints are the logistics involved with schlepping a huge number of kids from here to there and all of the things you touch on. Constraints on homeschoolers in a field trip situation are lesser, but when you’re teaching your kid at home (and I’m in no way bagging on you should you decide to do so), she (I think you said it was your daughter, all apologies if I pissed up your child’s gender) might be better challenged by the freakishly smart kid who is in her American History class. Or Illinois History, or algebra, or english literature, or french, or. . .well, or anything.

Sounds like a great thing. I hope he enjoys it immeasurably. And uses that knowledge in his classroom. Making up schoolwork is a pain in the ass, but it can be done. Hanging with parental units and getting the opportunity to investigate local history can be a better way to learn.

[QUOTE=bdgr]
He watched the presidential debates with me for instance…and asked if we could move to another country.
[/quote]

Oh, he’s a keeper.

65

As to the question of how home schooled students fare academically, here are few resources.

First from the HSLDA, comparing the average score of homeschooled students and public school, public school average is 21 and homeschooled is 22.7 (as of the 98-99 school year)
cite- http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000002/00000221.asp

Again from HSLDA - http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp
A few samples from the various studies.

The page I have linked to there also lists studies from a number of state education departments which all have similar findings.

Other examples were given by posters of the most extreme groups, such as the group that taught that women outside the group were demons, which is a very sad situation. I really feel for those kids and would be the first to say those people are doing their children a grave disservice. Most homeschooling families are nothing like that though. I have met and talked to hundreds if not thousands of home school families and they overwhelming do have their childrens best interests at heart and work to provide a good education for them.

Also, just to be clear…I am not in the least saying that homeschooling is the best choice for every family. There are plenty of people for whom public schooling is the best option and others for whom private schooling is. From my point of view, it doesn’t really matter which option you choose as long as the entire family is engaged in the education process. I believe that is why so many studies show homeschooled students with higher test scores, the average homeschooling parents are more involved in their childrens education than the average parents of public school students.

66

[QUOTE=Antinor01]
Other examples were given by posters of the most extreme groups, such as the group that taught that women outside the group were demons, which is a very sad situation. I really feel for those kids and would be the first to say those people are doing their children a grave disservice. Most homeschooling families are nothing like that though. I have met and talked to hundreds if not thousands of home school families and they overwhelming do have their childrens best interests at heart and work to provide a good education for them.
[/QUOTE]

Meh, that example wasn’t in this thread, it was in this one post #25. I’ve been reading both and got the crossed up.

67

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
What exactly is your beef with family autonomy or religious freedom?
[/QUOTE]

Nothing. Both are important. But

  1. They do not trump every other consideration; and

  2. Homeschooling has nothing to do with either.

68

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
Or don’t you think parents have the right to get their child a private education at all?
[/QUOTE]

See post #57.

69

[QUOTE=Lissa]
Stick around, honey. This place is increedible for learning about all of the sciences, arts, and culture. Every day I learn something new.

I’m really sorry you had that experience. But don’t let it hold you back. Everything I know-- and I don’t know all that much, admittedly-- I’ve learned through independant reading. The online debates here have really sharpened my thinking/logic skills.

Welcome to the Dope. May it open new worlds to you as it did for me.
[/QUOTE]

Seconded. And never let your schooling interfere with your education! :wink:

70

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
Nothing. Both are important. But

  1. They do not trump every other consideration; and
    [/QUOTE]
    I think religious freedom trumps an awful lot. I doubt you would be so cavalier about the importance of religious freedom if young earth creationism was being taught in your local public schools instead of evolution.

Of course it does. If religious ideas are being taught in the public schools that you do not want your kids exposed to, then being able to homeschool is absolutely germaine to religious freedom.

71

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
See post #57.
[/QUOTE]
I disagree with post #57. It is unconstitutional not to allow religious freedom in this country. As I said in my previous post, forcing children to go to a school where religious ideas are taught that run contrary to your own is violating religious freedom.

72

[QUOTE=furt]
That may be the way you translate them, but I think he’s entirely right about the noxious values taught in school. FWIW, that’s based on a decade as a professional classroom educator.
[/quote]

Then you should be aware that the National Education Association is mostly opposed to homeschooling, and not only because it is a trade union concerned with protecting its members’ jobs.

[QUOTE=furt]
You are aware, of course that a very large percentage of public high school graduates also need remedial work … in fact, a much higher percentage than homeschooled kids.
[/QUOTE]

Cite?

Of course, since some, perhaps many, homeschooling families do it because they don’t even want the state to know they exist, gathering any kind of accurate statistics on homeschooled kids might be impossible.

73

[QUOTE=GLWasteful]
she (I think you said it was your daughter, all apologies if I pissed up your child’s gender) might be better challenged by the freakishly smart kid who is in her American History class. Or Illinois History, or algebra, or english literature, or french, or. . .well, or anything.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I know it’s confusing. There’re two. My son is 13, and highly UNsuited for homeschooling (with me, anyway) 'cause he’s not self-motivating and likes to make teachers the bad guy. OTOH, I do everything I can to enrich his sucky education and fill in the gaps where I find them. But if we can’t get him into a slightly decent high school, we may be forced to try homeschooling next year. He’s the kind of quiet kid who will very easily fall through the cracks in a bad school and coast his way to graduation without learning squat.

There’s also a girl, who is not yet two, who may or may not be homeschooled, depending on her attitude, learning style, where we live and if I’m working full time when she’s school aged. If she goes to public, I will similarly try to enrich her education at home.

And this is a *great *point which I hadn’t considered. I, personally, am not one bit motivated by competition, nor is my son, but some kids are, and might be better off in a situation where they have someone who they can strive to better.

74

I’m impressed with the number of misconceptions and bad generalizations on this thread, I must say.

Fundamentalists may make up a large chunk of homeschooling families, but that percentage is getting smaller and smaller as homeschooling goes mainstream. Homeschooling families come in every type and flavor; most of my friends are leftist hippies or plain old middle-of-the-road families.

A lot of them found that their kids were being failed by the school system in one way or another–my friend just took her 10-yo out of his school because they were doing nothing but math and reading drill all day every day, sometimes missing recess, and no science or social studies at all. He’s a bright kid who can already read and do math very well, and he was frustrated, and no amount of talking with administrators helped. Now he’s enrolled in an independent study charter school, doing science labs and taking Japanese, and he has more time to hang out with friends and do sports, too.

The school district I live in is perfectly good, I have no complaints about it. But those of you who claim that diversity is only to be found in school, and not in homeschooling groups, have not seen my local school or the local homeschoolers. Diversity is often easier to find in the world than it is in school. The families I know work hard to make sure their kids have plenty of friends and fun. Homeschooling kids are not imprisoned at their kitchen tables, never seeing anyone outside the family–to the contrary, the fact that a full schoolday can fit into a morning, and then there’s no homework, means that they usually have much more free time and ability to engage with the world in lots of ways.

I can’t write much right now–we are finishing up a history unit about the New Kingdom of Egypt with a bit of fun archaeology. My kid is running around the house, trying to find the tomb I set up. When she finds it, she will have to draw and label every item before taking it out. She’s pretending to be Howard Carter. Then we have to wrap a present, since we’re going to a birthday party later.

It’s perfectly true that there are homeschooling families who do badly. Just as there are people of every kind who do badly. Homeschooling isn’t for everyone, by any means, but there’s no need to dismiss everyone who does it as horrible scary fundamentalists who never talk to anyone else. That’s just ridiculous. There are as many reasons to homeschool, and ways to do it, as there are homeschooling families.

75

[QUOTE=furt]
Literacy rates in the US today are lower than they were before we had mandatory schooling. That’s the “system” at work.
[/quote]

Cite?

[QUOTE=furt]
I’d also argue that we have less independant thought, less self-determination, and less intellectual curiosity because of the “system.”
[/quote]

Cite? Or at least argument?

76

WhyNot: Thanks for the clarification. I just didn’t want you to think that I was being purposefully disparaging as to the gender of your offspring. And according to your description, it sounds like your son might do better in a private school. You, I’m guessing, know him much better than I do.

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
And this is a *great *point which I hadn’t considered. I, personally, am not one bit motivated by competition, nor is my son, but some kids are, and might be better off in a situation where they have someone who they can strive to better.
[/QUOTE]

No offense intended, but very few people do take this into consideration. And I can tell you from firsthand experience that there are some frighteningly smart kids out there in public schools.

77

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
GL Wasteful, I think you make some good points. However, the CPS school district actually spends quite a bit per pupil, and increased spending does not correlate with better test scores, student retention or satisfaction.
[/quote]

Cite?

78

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
Cite?
[/QUOTE]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/content/education/chi-0111250048nov25,1,4014975.story?coll=chi-newsspecials-utl

http://www.illinoispolicyinstitute.org/education/archives/2005/08/rethinking_spen.php

http://www.ioc.state.il.us/fiscalfocus/current/article.cfm?id=202

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d03234.pdf (WARNING: PDF!)

79

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
[

My last job was as a small college Administrator/Receptionist/Office Goddess, and I had to do quite a bit of handwriting - printing or cursive was irrelevant. But if my boss couldn’t read my phone messages, or the students read my handwritten memos, then I wasn’t doing my job. I’m not insisting that the kid write in gorgeous Victorian fluidity, but readability would be nice. It’s still a lot more practical to write: “Call your babysitter at the class break!” by hand than open a Word document and print it out.

[/quote]

I assume everyone is still taught how to write, but I meant that the extensive time I was taught cursive seems excessive today. It was assumed that we would have to turn in most of our assignments handwritten - today even young kids are expected to do it on a computer. I didn’t have typing until 8th grade - now kids learn it at home.

As I said, my wife stayed home when I got out of school, since we decided to have kids pretty quickly, and then she started freelancing, where she could control her time. I appreciate that not everyone can do this, but I think it is relevant since enrichment takes a lot less time than home schooling. There are also weekends. People can make a choice to be involved with homework in the evening and not watch TV. It helps to be comfortable with it.

I suspect that most of the advantage of home schooling comes from parental involvement, and if you remove the parents who don’t give a crap from the mix, public school kids would come out just as well. Teachers have often commented to me how all the parents show up for back to school night in honors sections, and few show up in the not so good sections, where the need is just the opposite.

80

[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
I disagree with post #57. It is unconstitutional not to allow religious freedom in this country. As I said in my previous post, forcing children to go to a school where religious ideas are taught that run contrary to your own is violating religious freedom.
[/QUOTE]

No, teaching kids any religious doctrine in a public school would be violating religious freedom. Exposing kids to any secular ideas that might contradict a religious doctrine is not. We can tell secular things by the evidence for them and the fact that faith is not required to believe in them.