# puddleglum, are you fucking mental or just dense? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 11, 2001, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104 "2001-05-11T15:38:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/1 "2001-05-11T15:38:59Z")
Okay, fine. ONE researcher, using suspect methods, has determined that 2/3 of people who enter into “conversion therapy” claim they’re having a happy heterosexual life with help of therapy. Fine. Others (in [url=]this thread) have done better than I ever could in attempting to explain that this research is unbelievably flawed. However, after **andygirl** explains that she’s had a hysterical 16 year old email her because of this so-called research, and others **try** to explain to you how this is destructive, you pop off with this gem: > [@](#): > > If more research is done into what the most effective forms of therapy are then the abusive types of therapy will die out as people give them up for the effective type. Just as ECT was abandoned when more effective therapies were developed. That is one reason why further research in this area is critical. More research needs to be done so that we can know who can be helped and how to help them. Repeating change is impossible over and over does no one any good and just ensures ignorance will win out. You stupid fuck! Don’t you realize that the groups who referred the so-called “happy” convertees are _exactly the same groups_ using the “abusive types of therapy”? Jesus Christ on a phallicly endowed pogo stick, learn to comprehend what you read, will you? Or, better yet, accept that there **are** gay people, there always **will be** gay people and that YOU cannot force all of them to think their lives will be better if they “become straight.” Frankly, what with all your insistance on this subject, I think **you** should go seek out this kind of therapy. Not happy with yourself? Fine. Stop pushing your prejudices and ignorance out on this board. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/2 "2001-05-11T15:48:14Z")
for the record, that URL is supposed to be [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=70400](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=70400) I give up. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/3 "2001-05-11T16:39:26Z")
I haven’t posted to that thread but I’ve read every post in it. I have come to the conclussion that **puddleglum** has his head completely up his ass. How he manages to type in such a position is astounding. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/4 "2001-05-11T16:45:44Z")
Between him and [Zarathustra](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=70520), my poor head is just reeling. I agree that it’s largely a matter of rectal-cranial inversion. Chrck that–it’t more like rectal-osteocranial inversion. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/5 "2001-05-11T16:46:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stuffinb \* > I haven’t posted to that thread but I’ve read every post in it. I have come to the conclussion that **puddleglum** has his head completely up his ass. But with proper therapy, perhaps it could be removed…regardless if he likes it there or not :rolleyes: jarbaby ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/6 "2001-05-11T16:55:46Z")
Damn, **dogsbody** , you beat me to it! So, as I promised in a post in that thread, I’ll just deliver **how I feel** about **puddleglum** and all of his ideological ilk right here instead. **Puddleglum** , You wondered why we queer folk hold such vitriol for the practitioners of these “reparative” therapies. I can tell you why…they’re quacks! People’s lives are ruined by this therapy. People’s lives are ended because of this therapy. People like me are dying because of the mindset that clings to this therapy as if it were the greatest and most misunderstood medical breakthrough since antisepsis! This is good, old-fashioned aversion therapy with a strong fundamentalist, hard-line religious “we don’t care if you suffer, just don’t fuck men!” element to it. If I were to come to you, and tell you that you must go to therapy to “fix” your sinful, evil, dirty, disgusting, diseased, dangerous heterosexual orientation, would you like that? If I were your parent, and I **placed** you in a program that told you these things, would you like it? Would you like yourself much within about a week of that sort of treatment? Would you eventually lie about not feeling heterosexual to avoid being mistreated? Would you, knowing that your family, friends, and church would begin treating you that way again if you admitted you were lying, continue to lie years later when you were asked by a researcher about how you feel now? Dammit, put yourself in the shoes of some poor gay kid going into these fucking goddamn quackeries! It’s so fucking easy to sit back in your straight Christian home and type words over the Internet that have nothing whatsoever to do with you, isn’t it? It’s so fucking easy to try to downplay and denigrate those evil sexual perversions that you have no desire to participate in, isn’t it? It’s so fucking easy to close your mind to any sort of complexity of human nature and just assume it’s something simple that can be fixed by just saying “I will not be gay” a thousand times, isn’t it? I’m appalled by the mindless rank-and-filing behind this study. No questioning whatsoever on your part…just “Hey! This new study look scientific and it agrees with my wholly religious viewpoint! I believe it!” I’m appalled by the callous disregard for the human factor in the “reparative” therapy situation. “Teenagers are suffering and being forced into it where they electroshock their genitals and berate and scream at them for days at a time? What’s that got to do with my ideology?” I’m appalled at your blatant avoidance of any of the criticism levied at the study. “It’s not a sampling, so there can’t be sampling bias!” I’m appalled that you’ve been given cites to another study that shows that only 2% of “reparative” therapy is successful and you choose to ignore that. I’m appalled that someone who claims to be a Christian can be so completely unloving of any gay who doesn’t want desperately to change his or her orientation to better fit in your religious mold. So fuck you, puddleglum. Fuck you and the computer you surfed in on. And fuck you for taking one of the most inoffensive characters in modern literature and making me hate the very name by association. Fuck you for that. And once more for old C.S. Lewis, too. jayjay (pissed) ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/7 "2001-05-11T19:02:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\*Between him and [Zarathustra](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=70520), my poor head is just reeling. > > I agree that it’s largely a matter of rectal-cranial inversion. > > Chrck that–it’t more like rectal-osteocranial inversion. \*\* There’s two of them :eek: Someone please tell me how a board dedicated to fighting ignorace, draws so many ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/8 "2001-05-11T19:05:26Z")
**stuffinb** , They have to prove to us thinking folks that we’re wrong, and that everyone should think/believe/act **just like them**. :rolleyes: Because if we’re **not** wrong, then they might have to rethink their stances - or at least _learn_ something. And not only that, but their pathetic justifications for being “better” than other people would fall all to pieces. Boo fucking hoo. **Esprix** , hon, I have a cat of nine tails at home that might help, since I seem to have misplaced my clue-by-four. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/9 "2001-05-11T19:09:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dogsbody \* > > **Esprix** , hon, I have a cat of nine tails at home that might help, since I seem to have misplaced my clue-by-four. no nono no! Save the cat for a happy ocassion, don’t waste it on this. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/10 "2001-05-11T19:19:57Z")
**jarbaby** , 😉 But there will never **be** an appropriate time for me to use the cat! It was bought by a friend as a joke, and has become a part of my faire costume. Really. Never been used. Pounding sense into the head of a pair of idiots sounds like as good a use of it as any to me. YMMV, of course. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/11 "2001-05-11T19:21:26Z")
Ummm? Do you feel that these must be mutually exclusive? ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/12 "2001-05-11T19:22:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dogsbody \* > But there will never **be** an appropriate time for me to use the cat! don’t make me come over there and show you how fun a cat can be… maybe you just need some therapy to properly enjoy being beaten? I mean, I like it, so everyone else should, right? jarbaby ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/13 "2001-05-11T19:31:43Z")
**tomndebb** , no, but even in the Pit I feel I should initially give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I rescind that. **puddles** is obviously both mental _and_ dense. Not to mention a pustule on life’s buttcrack. **jarbaby** … :eek: maybe you should email me LOL ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/14 "2001-05-11T19:50:14Z")
Bra-fucking-vo dogsbody. I can only assume that puddleglum is being purposely obtuse, because otherwise he/she is a complete fucking dotard. Good lord. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/15 "2001-05-11T20:00:31Z")
And people wonder why I wear my life on my sleeve… :rolleyes: Oh, and **jayjay** , you’re forgetting the key element to the whole mindset of these morons - we’re all _supposed_ to be heterosexual, remember? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/16 "2001-05-11T20:07:09Z")
I was about ready to come in here and start a Pit thread about the very same overgrown infants. AAARRRRGHGHGH! The last time I faced such pig-headed willingness to defend the indefensible was when I tried to convince a Tennessee Baptist that thinking “black people are all right and all, I just don’t want my sister to date one” was, in fact, racism. Not that I’ve been doing a stellar job in my arguments, but holy fuck, puddlegum! Try actually _reading_ what the other posters have said. Don’t just parrot what they wrote and then twist it around. It’s a little knack we like to call “reading comprehension”. You know what? I’ve been doing some research, and I just don’t think you’ve tried hard enough to be gay. With the right treatment, you could be as gay as they come, so-to-speak! I’m pretty sure it’s possible, because I just called a few people who told me they slept with other men in college, and they said it was fun. If you try hard enough, with time nothing will make you happier than sucking dick! I’m only saying this because your form of heterosexuality, with its blatant moralizing and bigotry, is deeply offensive to me and my community. Christ. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/17 "2001-05-11T20:11:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > And people wonder why I wear my life on my sleeve… :rolleyes: imagine THOSE laundry bills 😃 jarbaby ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/18 "2001-05-11T20:41:23Z")
Thank you for this thread. I wanted to participate in the other one, but by the time I got around to it, puddleglum had made such a complete and thorough ass of himself that I doubted that I could try my hand at getting him to understand that which everyone else has said without getting verbally abusive. Unfortunately, he seems to have decided that the Pit isn’t intellectual enough for him to grace us with his presence, but maybe he’ll read this. First, I’d like to reiterate a couple points in general. 1. This study is not science. There have been scientific studies on conversion therapy, and they disagree with this one. Conversion therapy is also not science. Stop trying to wrap up this evil nonsense in a sacred cloak. 2. Conversion therapy hurts people. While I wouldn’t advocate outright banning of it, it should not be encouraged at all. It should not be accepted (and is not accepted) as legitimate psyhology. 3. If gay people are unhappy with themselves, there are far more healthy types of therapy that focus on accepting themselves. Conversion therapy teaches a person that they are not worthy the way they are. This is directly opposed to the goals of psychotherapy in general. 4. Calling those who disagree with you fascists is stupid, and vastly inaccurate. Just because they are loathe to pass off a process that encourages self-loathing, and doesn’t work, as psychotherapy does not at all earn them that title. OK, now on to specific quotes: > [@](#): > > If more research is done into what the most effective forms of therapy are then the abusive types of therapy will die out as people give them up for the effective type. Just as ECT was abandoned when more effective therapies were developed. That is one reason why further research in this area is critical. So, the people hurt in the process are just shit-out-of-luck then? Look, moron, further research in this area would only be critical if the goals furthered were worthwhile. As it is, there is no legitimate reason for converting people from gay to straight, especially since it generally is a harmful process, and has a 3% success rate. > [@](#): > > Obviously there needs to be more study of what differentiates the successful therapies from the unsuccesfull ones so that these success rates can be made higher. Again, you fucking imbecile, THERE IS NO NEED TO MAKE CONVERSION THERAPY WORK. Besides, it’s impossible. Yes, there are a few people that have had success with it. I would imagine that the reasons for success have more to do with the people than with the therapy. > [@](#): > > So what your saying is that science shouldn’t be done and we should not try to help people because someone somewhere may misuse the results. I understand that you’re a bit slow, but CONVERSION THERAPY IS NOT SCIENCE, AND IT DOESN’T HELP PEOPLE! What we are trying to say is that harmful pseudoscience should not be done because it doesn’t work and is wrong. Just as the medical community should discourage people who need medical attention from turning to quacks, so the psychiatric community should discourage people who need counselling from turning to conversion therapy. > [@](#): > > Sorry Mr. Ford, You can’t mass produce the car because someone might try to drive one after drinking and innocent people could get hurt More like, “Sorry, Mr. Snake Oil Salesman, you can’t peddle your wares here, because they are harmful to people, and are based on fraud.” > [@](#): > > I would direct your attention to the excerpts Esprix posted from the APA website, which state unequivocally that therapy can not change sexual preference. So there are people who do argue that gays can not go straight and that sexual preference is unchangeable. Sexual preference is unchangeable. Behavior, self-identification, and lifestyle are changeable. I could find a way to force myself to live a homosexual lifestyle, and think of myself as gay, but I can’t change what I really am. Some people can probably be happy after this process, but that’s no reason to encourage anyone that it is a healthy thing to do. > [@](#): > > If a gay person is unhappy and unfulfilled and goes into therapy there are two scenarios either it works or it does not. If it works and he goes on to a happy and fullfilled life as a straight that is a success. What about therapy to tell him that he is fine just the wayhe is, and to be happy with himself? What, are you really so naive as to think that conversion therapy (actually, to further drive the point home, I will henceforth refer to it as “conversion quackery” as that’s a more accurate term) is the only therapy available to depressed homosexuals? I know you’re stupid, but I’ve seen moss that could figure that out quicker. > [@](#): > > After reading your post I hope that Mr Visible no longer doubts the existence of sexual fascists. So, Esprix advocated mass murder and the invasion of Poland in his post? No, wait, he just called you a bigot. That’s hardly comparable. While I personally don’t think you’re a bigot, you seem to be too dumb to realize that you are advocating ideas that harm homosexuals. > [@](#): > > I hope you have fun in the Pit but I will stay here and engage in the rational exchange of ideas and leave the emotional harangues to others. There is no rational exchange of ideas. The only rational ideas involved are being flung at you from all sides while you ignore them. Perhaps here we can break out the fire hose and make you actually notice. > [@](#): > > When I was in psychology school they told us that it was generally not a good idea for the therapist to impose his goals and values on the client. Wait, I thought you were in favor of conversion quackery? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/19 "2001-05-11T20:45:48Z")
ARGH! That’s like telling someone that with the right therapy, you can magically wake up looking like Kate Winslet…(Oh, if ONLY!) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2001, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104/20 "2001-05-11T21:01:45Z")
I haven’t posted to either the GD thread or this one, because I had very little to say that had not already been said quite ably by you who have posted there and here. I want to single out **andygirl** for special kudos – a brilliant job of arguing from heart and mind in tandem on several good posts over there. I’m breaking my silence because I think the gay posters here and the community you represent deserve an apology from all of us who try to follow Christ and who are given a bad name by imbeciles like Mr. Marshwiggle advocates for. ( **Jarbaby** , you rock – I’d been thinking of commenting that C.S. Lewis, who was somewhat sympathetic to homosexual people [though offended by the “homosexual coterie” (his term) who dominated English literature during much of his career, and to argue against whose prejudices was professional suicide] would be rolling over in his grave to see his character hijacked by the Religious Right (“which, like the former term Moral Majority, is neither”). Anyway, I’m offended that the name of One who preached love and compassion, and steadfast commitment to one’s best judgment of what is right to do, gets thrown around to describe the 21st Century Pharisee movement. Andy, Jayjay, Matt, Esprix, Freyr, Hastur, etc. you have _my_ apologies for what this idiot is doing in my Lord’s Nname. Just FYI, it’s one final irony that over on the Pizza Parlor, this is being debated in the Beverage Bar – with far more understanding and patience, and simple listening to each other, among the parties involved than Puddleglum seems able to muster. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puddleglum-are-you-fucking-mental-or-just-dense/65104.md?page=2)