# Pulitzer Prize in Music: What should be eligible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2018, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539 "2018-04-16T22:17:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/21 "2018-04-17T19:24:20Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > It’s not a matter of genre (“classical” vs “jazz” vs “pop” or whatever); it’s a matter of what is a “distinguished musical composition.” In the past, this has been a prize for a **musical** (not lyrical or poetical) **composition** (not performance or recording). IMHO this drastically changes what it’s a prize _for_. Eh. I mean, emotionally I want to agree with you, but isn’t the process of writing lyrics and setting them to pitch/rhythm included in the word “composition”? Or rather, couldn’t it be? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/22 "2018-04-17T19:26:37Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > There has always been “folk” music. “Pop” music is music written by professionals to make money from the public, whether by other professionals performing it in public or on recordings or letting the public buy it to perform themselves, as with sheet music. OK, then what’s a bard playing the region’s traditional music at a wedding? Pop or not pop? The bard is a professional, and expects to get paid. How about if the bard improvises and rewrites some of the song? More than that, folk music is, pretty much by definition, popular. If you want to split a hair between pop and popular, I can do the same with the statement below, and say that “Classical music” commonly refers to a Western art music tradition which doesn’t stretch back further than the Medieval period. > [@](#): > > I say “modern” classical music because elites have had retinues of musicians waiting on them from ancient days, exactly the way modern classical music evolved. > [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Here’s the “elaborate apparatus to support non-popular music”: There’s a big room with seats, and the band gets paid somehow. I think you and **Exapno Mapcase** should talk about the relationship between commercial music and pop/popular music. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/23 "2018-04-17T19:27:14Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Eh. I mean, emotionally I want to agree with you, but isn’t the process of writing lyrics and setting them to pitch/rhythm included in the word “composition”? Or rather, couldn’t it be? The process of writing lyrics is definitely EXcluded. Setting the pitches and rhythms is included, but as a composition, would need to be judged by the same standard as music that has no lyrics. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/24 "2018-04-17T19:29:16Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > You’re right, but you also gave me an idea. > > Preliminary round for distinguished musical compositions: > > Remove the words from all the scores, hire a highly-skilled group of players, and have all the compositions played one after another by the players you just hired. Oh - don’t have a score? Sorry, that’s not a composition yet, please bring it back when it’s finished. But then it’s not an award for “music”, rather, it’s an award for a very specific kind of music. Which is all good. Have awards for whatever you want, but don’t call it a “music” award, call it the “Award for music in the Western classical/orchestral tradition” or something. The idea that music is only worthy of recognition if it’s been written down using a particular type of notation and can be performed using specific instruments or approaches is pretty narrow and ultimately not inclusive of all things that qualify as music. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/25 "2018-04-17T19:35:37Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > The process of writing lyrics is definitely EXcluded. Setting the pitches and rhythms is included, but as a composition, would need to be judged by the same standard as music that has no lyrics. No snark intended, but excluded according to whom? Take a song. How about Zadok the Priest by Handel. Is it the same piece of music if we replace the words with “la la la”? If not, then how can you claim that the writing (or setting) of the words to music is not part of the compositional process? As far as judging by the same standard I agree with that. Or rather, I think it’s impossible to truly judge all music on the same objective scale; there are too many different ways to do music that all have different qualities that can be superlative. “Distinguished musical composition” is a pretty loosey-goosey criteria, full of subjectivity and completely lacking in objectivity. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/26 "2018-04-17T19:44:47Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > OK, then what’s a bard playing the region’s traditional music at a wedding? Pop or not pop? The bard is a professional, and expects to get paid. How about if the bard improvises and rewrites some of the song? > > More than that, folk music is, pretty much by definition, popular. If you want to split a hair between pop and popular, I can do the same with the statement below, and say that “Classical music” commonly refers to a Western art music tradition which doesn’t stretch back further than the Medieval period. > > I think you and **Exapno Mapcase** should talk about the relationship between commercial music and pop/popular music. First, folk musicians are the easiest to identify. Folk musicians (musicians, not folk song writers) expect that they will never be paid beyond someone buying them a beer, they are fine with that, and they play anything they like but it’s usually traditional. Folk song writers (who are probably also folk musicians) write what they like, they expect no pay beyond that beer we talked about, no marketing beyond word of mouth, and no publication beyond handwriting and the photocopy machine. New folk music is therefore strictly local, though the best folk songs become part of a tradition and might eventually be published and marketed. There are popular musicians who play in a traditional-folk-sounding style, but who “turn pro”. Once they do that, they are not folk musicians anymore. Bob Dylan, etc. [“To be continued” :)] ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/27 "2018-04-17T20:01:12Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > No snark intended, but excluded according to whom? > > Take a song. How about Zadok the Priest by Handel. Is it the same piece of music if we replace the words with “la la la”? If not, then how can you claim that the writing (or setting) of the words to music is not part of the compositional process? > > As far as judging by the same standard I agree with that. Or rather, I think it’s impossible to truly judge all music on the same objective scale; there are too many different ways to do music that all have different qualities that can be superlative. “Distinguished musical composition” is a pretty loosey-goosey criteria, full of subjectivity and completely lacking in objectivity. You’re right, but not THAT right. Literature is a tradition, and there are literature experts and literature lovers. Broadway musicals are a tradition, and there are experts in and lovers of that tradition. Music composition - same thing, it has experts and there are people who love it. Let’s say that, 100 years from now, hardly anybody cares about Broadway musicals anymore. Should the Tony award for best new musical that year go to a pop music album? ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/28 "2018-04-17T20:17:52Z")
On the other hand, let’s say that for some unknown reason the Monday Night Football crew decides to do one Monday as a full-on Broadway musical, they convince the players and coaches to sing, the half-time band plays the whole time, it’s dramatic, it’s brilliant, it’s hilarious, and it hasn’t been a great year on Broadway - then I think they deserve a shot at a Tony, because they changed what they were doing and made themselves part of a tradition they normally don’t belong to. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/29 "2018-04-17T20:23:46Z")
Heavily snipped and with tons of respect intended. * * * > [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > Are we sure that the new genres are up to the task? Hip hop is a 50 year old genre. It’s not just a new genre anymore. At its best it’s picking up where both beat poetry and jazz left off (and while there is great jazz being made still, let’s not pretend it still is what it was 50 years ago) . It’s not always at its best, but that is true of all art forms. > [@](#): > > . To be honest, **Dylan** getting the Nobel Prize was farcical in my view. As for **Kendrick Lamar** , the little I know of his music sounds very slickly produced and highly proficient but doesn’t strike me as particularly deep, distinctive or memorable. I don’t know, really… This is simply incorrect due to lack of exposure. That’s not your fault, if you haven’t heard much of his music you would not know. If you aren’t familiar with hip hop you might not be able to “hear” it anyway. > [@](#): > > I was listening to some Jazz a few days ago and reflecting how it seemed to me that pop music is getting more and more boring musically. Not bad or annoying or offensive. Just boring. This is undeniable IMO. Most of what “the kids” are listening to these days bores me to tears. But not Kendrick. Doesn’t apply. > [@](#): > > Jazz cats could improvise on the spot on some intricate chord progressions, keeping the music fresh, innovative and daring. Classical music has a centuries-long tradition of developing beautifully moving music out of highly complex rules and structures. But what do I hear in current pop music ? An undeniable moving away from harmonies and melodies in favour of beats and flow. I admit that some of it is technically extremely impressive, virtuosic even. But I doubt that these parameters have as much potential for deep development. This is, disappointing. It also speaks of ignorance of the genre, but there is a lot of depth not just lyrically but sonically as well. You get improvisation, just that most of it is lyrical. The second track on DAMN the entire end of the song was done “freestyle” or unwritten. Kendrick just went in the studio and started rapping until he was out of things to say. This is a skill as impressive to me as any jazz improvisation because of how intricate the rhyme and rhythms need to be. You get lots of musical variety with the “beats” as well. Hip hop beats have changed pop music across genre as well. Good producers mix beats in a way that is also very similar to jazz. They take snippets and phrases of extant material as well as original material and interpolation of popular works and combine and rearrange them to make something unique. You also get the most sonic innovation in hip hop of any current genre. They are pushing what you can do with audio recording in a way no one else cares about until a break through happens. Add to that the storytelling aspect that you don’t get anywhere else outside of folk music. I appreciate that you are acknowledging the virtuosity necessary but I feel like you haven’t really given the genre more than a surface level look based on your other comments. You should look deeper. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/30 "2018-04-17T20:33:26Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > But K L’s strong point isn’t his music composition, it’s his words. He’s not in the **music composition** business, even though he does end up composing music when he writes songs. > > ". This is factually inaccurate. Cite: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/hRK7PVJFbS8/maxresdefault.jpg "Kendrick Lamar - King Kunta") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRK7PVJFbS8) [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nmT8r3Y1b3Y/hqdefault.jpg "Kendrick Lamar-Untitled (1,2 & 3)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmT8r3Y1b3Y) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/6KQ0gGeYF-o/maxresdefault.jpg "ELEMENT.") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KQ0gGeYF-o) You may not like the music. But clearly there is music. And since when do lyrics not count? ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/31 "2018-04-17T20:39:40Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > It’s not a matter of genre (“classical” vs “jazz” vs “pop” or whatever); it’s a matter of what is a “distinguished musical composition.” In the past, this has been a prize for a **musical** (not lyrical or poetical) **composition** (not performance or recording). IMHO this drastically changes what it’s a prize _for_. > [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Remove the words from all the scores, hire a highly-skilled group of players, and have all the compositions played one after another by the players you just hired. Oh - don’t have a score? Sorry, that’s not a composition yet, please bring it back when it’s finished. The Pulitzer board hasn’t required written or printed scores since 2005. In any case, this isn’t the first time a recording got a Pulitzer—that happened in 2007, when Ornette Coleman’s _Sound Grammar_ (a recording of a live, improvised performance) won. I’m a classical music guy through and through—I own exactly one jazz album (_Kind of Blue_, natch) and I barely know who Kendrick Lamar is. But I can’t think of a single compelling reason to limit Pulitzers to a particular genre. Most of the music Pulitzers have gone to composers in academia and/or composers who are old and haven’t won yet. In most cases the works are performed a few times and quickly forgotten. Looking down the list of past music Pulitzers, I’d say that the most recent winner that is still regularly performed is Barber’s Piano Concerto from 1963. I think it’s commendable that the Pulitzer board is trying to get out of the academic, Eurocentric box they’ve been in for decades. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/32 "2018-04-17T20:45:31Z")
I’m just going to refrain from commenting at all because my opinions about a lot of people’s opinions on this thread aren’t out-of-the-Pit-worthy. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/33 "2018-04-17T21:02:42Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > And since when do lyrics not count? It’s up to the people defining what the prize is for to decide whether or not lyrics count. And to say that they do not would be a perfectly legitimate choice, if they’re consistent about it. Looking over the list of past winners, it appears that the clear majority are instrumental works, but there have been some vocal works (operas, cantatas, etc.). Were those works awarded the Prize on the basis of their lyrics, or only their music? ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/34 "2018-04-17T21:14:58Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > It’s up to the people defining what the prize is for to decide whether or not lyrics count. And to say that they do not would be a perfectly legitimate choice, if they’re consistent about it. > > Looking over the list of past winners, it appears that the clear majority are instrumental works, but there have been some vocal works (operas, cantatas, etc.). Were those works awarded the Prize on the basis of their lyrics, or only their music? To my mind in any work with lyrics the lyrics are inextrricably intertwined with the music. This is why opera is not typically sung in translation. The Marriage of Figaro sung in English isn’t really the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/35 "2018-04-17T21:15:54Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > OK, then what’s a bard playing the region’s traditional music at a wedding? Pop or not pop? The bard is a professional, and expects to get paid. How about if the bard improvises and rewrites some of the song? You’ve got it exactly backward. What matters is not the band playing it but the reason the music was written. Is it a traditional folk piece? Then it’s folk. Is it a classical aria? Then it’s classical. Is it commercial pop? Then it’s pop. > [@](#): > > More than that, folk music is, pretty much by definition, popular. No, by definition people’s folk music is “of the people.” It’s not pop music. It may or may be in fact popular, i.e. widespread throughout a population. It can be small and local. Filk, the punning name given to songs sung at science fiction conventions with lyrics related to f&sf, goes back farther than rock music, has a dedicated fan base, and has scheduled performances at almost every convention, but it’s folk music that is minuscule in societal terms. > [@](#): > > I think you and **Exapno Mapcase** should talk about the relationship between commercial music and pop/popular music. Not all commercial music is pop music. But pop music is very broad. That’s why the maligned Rock and Roll Hall of Fame has at bottom gotten it right by including in its inductees pop musicians of numerous genres, which they happen to lump together as rock and roll instead of pop. Pop music does not include jazz or classical music, though, but that’s for historical reasons. Same with country, which is in every respect pop music. If your wedding band plays a country song, are they a country band? No. And if your local high school chorale sings a Beatles song they’re not a rock and roll band either. Pop music emerges from the structure of the industry, and that industry starts in the 19th century. It drew upon traditional music from many nations and cultures but became something new and different. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/36 "2018-04-17T21:49:07Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > To my mind in any work with lyrics the lyrics are inextrricably intertwined with the music. This is why opera is not typically sung in translation. The Marriage of Figaro sung in English isn’t really the same thing. An opera, if it’s good enough musically, can be enjoyed by listeners who don’t understand the language it’s sung in. One could argue that the best way to judge an opera _purely as music_ would be to judge it based on how well it holds up for someone who doesn’t understand the words. Or, conversely, one could argue that the music should be judged on how well it enhances the story and meanings and emotions conveyed by the words. (Analogously, a movie score could be judged by how well it can be appreciated apart from the movie, or by how well it works within the context of the movie.) IMHO neither approach is wrong. And one advantage to the former is it seems like a fairer way of comparing them against purely instrumental works in a way that lets you judge them by similar criteria. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/37 "2018-04-17T21:55:57Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > An opera, if it’s good enough musically, can be enjoyed by listeners who don’t understand the language it’s sung in. One can state that the best rap music (like Kendrick Lamar) has lyrics that can be enjoyed not just for their content but for their musicality, especially as complementing the instruments. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/38 "2018-04-17T22:10:41Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > An opera, if it’s good enough musically, can be enjoyed by listeners who don’t understand the language it’s sung in. > > One could argue that the best way to judge an opera _purely as music_ would be to judge it based on how well it holds up for someone who doesn’t understand the words. Or, conversely, one could argue that the music should be judged on how well it enhances the story and meanings and emotions conveyed by the words. (Analogously, a movie score could be judged by how well it can be appreciated apart from the movie, or by how well it works within the context of the movie.) IMHO neither approach is wrong. And one advantage to the former is it seems like a fairer way of comparing them against purely instrumental works in a way that lets you judge them by similar criteria. I don’t disagree. But the sound of the words and their rhythm is part of the music. Hip hop is not that different from opera in a foreign language for many people. You will frequently not be able to understand every word being said when a high speed rapper is rapping. The rhythm and music of the words is important in those instances. The meaning is an extra layer. [Kendrick Lamar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZTYgq4EoRo) cite for music of the words. Not that the meaning is unimportant (it is!) but the song is about the rhythm and sound of the words. Go to 1:45 and listen through to the end if you don’t believe me but don’t want to listen to the whole 2 minutes. Or, if you want to go for hip hop generally: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/XbGs_qK2PQA/maxresdefault.jpg "Eminem - Rap God (Explicit)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbGs_qK2PQA) [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/VMYAEHE2GrM/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AG-AoAC9AGKAgwIABABGHIgSigjMA8=&rs=AOn4CLALt8vQnQQLMqXX_yW2Hd2ZJ5Yk1w "Bone Thugs N Harmony - Crossroads") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMYAEHE2GrM) Even not fast songs. Check out Andres verse on[So Fresh So Clean](https://youtu.be/-JfEJq56IwI) (minute 2, but it’s more obvious in contrast to the previous verse). Again, Figaro is in Italian because it sounds right in Italian. The sound of the words is important not just the meaning. Same in hip hop. More maybe. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/39 "2018-04-17T22:18:16Z")
> [@erysichthon](#): > > The Pulitzer board hasn’t required written or printed scores since 2005. In any case, this isn’t the first time a recording got a Pulitzer—that happened in 2007, when Ornette Coleman’s _Sound Grammar_ (a recording of a live, improvised performance) won. > > I’m a classical music guy through and through—I own exactly one jazz album (_Kind of Blue_, natch) and I barely know who Kendrick Lamar is. But I can’t think of a single compelling reason to limit Pulitzers to a particular genre. Most of the music Pulitzers have gone to composers in academia and/or composers who are old and haven’t won yet. In most cases the works are performed a few times and quickly forgotten. Looking down the list of past music Pulitzers, I’d say that the most recent winner that is still regularly performed is Barber’s Piano Concerto from 1963. I think it’s commendable that the Pulitzer board is trying to get out of the academic, Eurocentric box they’ve been in for decades. I’d argue that the prize was created specifically for the academic Eurocentric box, that it was intended to remain that way, and that this particular case of “out of the box” is simply a polite way of describing “lost the plot”. There are lots of awards that are genre-specific. Should Kendrick Lamar win the World Series for this album too? He’s more popular than the Chicago Cubs. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2018, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539/40 "2018-04-17T22:24:11Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > I don’t disagree. But the sound of the words and their rhythm is part of the music. Hip hop is not that different from opera in a foreign language for many people. You will frequently not be able to understand every word being said when a high speed rapper is rapping. The rhythm and music of the words is important in those instances. The meaning is an extra layer. > > [Kendrick Lamar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZTYgq4EoRo) cite for music of the words. Not that the meaning is unimportant (it is!) but the song is about the rhythm and sound of the words. Go to 1:45 and listen through to the end if you don’t believe me but don’t want to listen to the whole 2 minutes. > > Or, if you want to go for hip hop generally: > [https://youtu.be/XbGs\_qK2PQA](https://youtu.be/XbGs_qK2PQA) > > [https://youtu.be/VMYAEHE2GrM](https://youtu.be/VMYAEHE2GrM) > > Even not fast songs. Check out Andres verse on[So Fresh So Clean](https://youtu.be/-JfEJq56IwI) (minute 2, but it’s more obvious in contrast to the previous verse). > > Again, Figaro is in Italian because it sounds right in Italian. The sound of the words is important not just the meaning. Same in hip hop. More maybe. Oh or surreal rap like [MF Doom.](https://youtu.be/MoO-QM3YRVM) Not fast but the lyrics aren’t telling stories. It’s about the music the rhymes make. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulitzer-prize-in-music-what-should-be-eligible/812539.md?page=3)