# Pulling into the intersection to turn left on green **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 28, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394 "2013-08-28T12:51:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/41 "2013-08-29T02:36:04Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > I’ve never heard this, and I can’t find it after a quick search. Do you know what part of SS. Ch. 316 forbids it? He doesn’t know, because it’s perfectly legal in Florida. ---
**Author:** ![georgewk10](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f475e1/32.png) [@georgewk10](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/georgewk10)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/42 "2013-08-29T04:47:20Z")
I dunno. might be different for different states. ask a cop. I have heard that if you are in a lane to turn/ don’t turn your wheels until you are beginning the turn. because if someone rear ended you it would propel you into on-coming traffic, Bad~ ---
**Author:** ![David\_H\_Singanas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@David\_H\_Singanas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_H_Singanas)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/43 "2013-08-29T05:08:21Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I would add the caveat that where and when this is okay, only ONE vehicle should do it. A chorus line of drivers pulled out into the intersection, all waiting for the red light to complete their turns, is exactly the sort of thing that leads to total gridlock. Quite so, Sailboat. In Houston I always wait for a car signaling a left turn to clear the intersection before I enter for my left turn on green. I cut my wheels for the left turn because I have never heard of anyone being rear ended when flashing red for a left turn. JMO, Singanas ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/44 "2013-08-29T05:51:03Z")
It’s ok here; I wish it were mandatory. A driver who patiently sits still during countless cycles is being rude to those behind him. The exception would be if there is no place to turn to in the cross street, once the light changes. ---
**Author:** ![fanganga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fanganga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fanganga)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/45 "2013-08-29T12:45:39Z")
I’d thought that marked “mini-lanes” to wait for a gap in oncoming traffic to turn, as shown [here](https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.97505,-1.603476&spn=0.000472,0.000603&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=54.97505,-1.603476&panoid=Cy3JGrShAiwvshILzJusFQ&cbp=12,39.56,,0,34.54) at a non-light-controlled junction and [here](https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.974327,-1.603606&spn=0.000472,0.000603&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=54.974327,-1.603606&panoid=5HKSv5_UWOlR6GVhUMkjpg&cbp=12,44.69,,0,4.1) at a light-controlled intersection were common where I’m from but I had a hard time finding examples on google maps. How common are they where you guys are? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/46 "2013-08-29T12:55:23Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I was taught this too. I’ve been surprised to see other drivers turn their wheels before they can actually turn left. Drivers do lots of stupid things; this is just one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/47 "2013-08-29T13:06:21Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > often after the car in the intersection turns right on red, the next two cars think they should get to go as well. And this is even in intersections that have a left arrow, so it really pisses me off Here in Northern Virginia, I often joke that it seems to be the convention to go through a red light if you’ve _seen it green_ at any point during your approach, because almost everyone feels like if it turned red as they were arriving at the intersection, they can go through (of course – otherwise they would have to _stop_) and everyone seems to feel they can follow the last guy through and it’ll be okay, so they go too. While on foot in Crystal City one time, I counted _seven_ cars going left through a solid red light from being stopped cold – that is to say, they were so far back in the line that the light was red before any of them had started rolling, but they followed everyone else through and just made cross traffic sit and stew. > [@Learjeff](#): > > In congested traffic, you’re right. Here in Northern Virginia, do we have any other kind? We’ve been neck and neck with Los Angeles for worst traffic in the US for years, and this year we slipped into the lead. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/48 "2013-08-29T13:15:43Z")
There was a recent thread on this very subject over at [Ask MetaFilter](http://ask.metafilter.com/245251/Pull-forward-please-I-also-want-to-turn), without any definitive conclusion. It seems to vary by state, and what’s in the traffic code for a given locale vs. what’s taught in driver’s ed classes there aren’t necessarily the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/49 "2013-08-29T13:17:25Z")
> [@fanganga](#): > > I’d thought that marked “mini-lanes” to wait for a gap in oncoming traffic to turn, as shown [here](https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.97505,-1.603476&spn=0.000472,0.000603&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=54.97505,-1.603476&panoid=Cy3JGrShAiwvshILzJusFQ&cbp=12,39.56,,0,34.54) at a non-light-controlled junction and [here](https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.974327,-1.603606&spn=0.000472,0.000603&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=54.974327,-1.603606&panoid=5HKSv5_UWOlR6GVhUMkjpg&cbp=12,44.69,,0,4.1) at a light-controlled intersection were common where I’m from but I had a hard time finding examples on google maps. How common are they where you guys are? Driving on the _wrong_ side of the road is pretty uncommon here, unless of course, you’ve had a few too many. 😃 Sorry, I just couldn’t resist. Yes, I _ **know** _, it’s (probably) the UK. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/50 "2013-08-29T16:38:59Z")
> [@fanganga](#): > > I’d thought that marked “mini-lanes” to wait for a gap in oncoming traffic to turn, as shown [here](https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.97505,-1.603476&spn=0.000472,0.000603&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=54.97505,-1.603476&panoid=Cy3JGrShAiwvshILzJusFQ&cbp=12,39.56,,0,34.54) at a non-light-controlled junction and [here](https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=54.974327,-1.603606&spn=0.000472,0.000603&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=54.974327,-1.603606&panoid=5HKSv5_UWOlR6GVhUMkjpg&cbp=12,44.69,,0,4.1) at a light-controlled intersection were common where I’m from but I had a hard time finding examples on google maps. How common are they where you guys are? We have left turn lanes here in the US. Ones at intersections may have separate traffic lights or not (like the subject of this thread). Left turn lanes away from traffic lights may be dedicated for one direction of road, like the ones in your pictures, or may be shared by both directions. You occasionally have maneuver around someone from the on-coming direction if you’re both making a left at about the same place, but you’re both going slow by that point, and presumably paying attention. > [@Sailboat](#): > > Here in Northern Virginia, I often joke that it seems to be the convention to go through a red light if you’ve seen it green at any point during your approach, because almost everyone feels like if it turned red as they were arriving at the intersection, they can go through (of course – otherwise they would have to stop) and everyone seems to feel they can follow the last guy through and it’ll be okay, so they go too. While on foot in Crystal City one time, I counted seven cars going left through a solid red light from being stopped cold – that is to say, they were so far back in the line that the light was red before any of them had started rolling, but they followed everyone else through and just made cross traffic sit and stew. Never seen that in Michigan. Custom generally followed here is one car pulls into the intersection, and if the traffic doesn’t clear until the light changes, a second car will also make a left. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/51 "2013-08-29T19:38:36Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > As for the dedicated left turn lights, it’s not usually a problem in big cities, as there’s almost always some level of traffic except perhaps late at night. But out in the Fort Bend suburbs, the traffic engineers have started testing flashing yellows on the left turn lanes. If there’s no oncoming traffic, you are clear to turn. Naturally, these don’t operate during rush hour when there’s always oncoming traffic. The inflexible dedicated left-turn lights always drive me nuts when I go visit my parents in the Meadows. It could be 11:30 pm and there’s not a car in sight in any direction, and yet I’m sitting there with my blinker on waiting for that stupid left-turn arrow to come on. It’s about time they do something more reasonable! ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/52 "2013-08-29T20:00:28Z")
> [@bump](#): > > The inflexible dedicated left-turn lights always drive me nuts when I go visit my parents in the Meadows. It could be 11:30 pm and there’s not a car in sight in any direction, and yet I’m sitting there with my blinker on waiting for that stupid left-turn arrow to come on. > > It’s about time they do something more reasonable! True. I’ve been know to run these. I’m going to get in trouble for that one of these days. ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/53 "2013-08-30T03:31:58Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > The flashing left arrow is a new nationwide standard that is gradually coming into use in many places. Note that the solid (non-flashing) yellow left arrow and the flashing yellow left arrow are housed in two separate lamps rather than using the same lamp. (Anybody know why that should be?) I believe that is part of the standard, for whatever reason. > > Example: [http://www.cityofhenderson.com/public\_works/fya.php](http://www.cityofhenderson.com/public_works/fya.php) > > Google _flashing yellow left arrow_ to find many many more places where this is described, and places that are using this now. They tried to use a single yellow lamp (well, usually LEDs nowadays) for both the flashing and the nonflashing indication, but early on it was found it was too hard to tell when the yellow stopped flashing and went solid, since a yellow only lasts a few seconds drivers often didn’t notice until it went red. Having two lamps makes it more noticeable due to the position change, and you can tell instantly when it changes, not after noticing it hasn’t turned off after a second. Sometimes the green and flashing yellow are doubled up, either because they didn’t want to bother physically changing out the signal for a four position, of for option lanes (where you can turn but aren’t required). The color change helps make it noticeable, although less so than a color and postion change ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/54 "2013-08-30T06:01:12Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > They tried to use a single yellow lamp (well, usually LEDs nowadays) for both the flashing and the nonflashing indication, but early on it was found it was too hard to tell when the yellow stopped flashing and went solid, since a yellow only lasts a few seconds drivers often didn’t notice until it went red. Having two lamps makes it more noticeable due to the position change, and you can tell instantly when it changes, not after noticing it hasn’t turned off after a second. It confuses me anyway. Note the animation in the link I posted. (Here it is again: [http://www.cityofhenderson.com/public\_works/fya.php](http://www.cityofhenderson.com/public_works/fya.php) ) The solid yellow arrow comes on at two different times during the cycle: [ul] [li] Green[/li][li] Solid yellow[/li][li] Flashing yellow[/li][li] Solid yellow again[/li][li] Red[/li][li] Then back to green again.[/li][/ul] That must take some getting used to, in order to understand what’s going on without having to actually think it over each time you see it. ETA: The problem is, if you first notice the light when it’s solid yellow, you don’t know what it’s going to do next. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/55 "2013-08-30T14:23:57Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > It confuses me anyway. Note the animation in the link I posted. > > (Here it is again: > [http://www.cityofhenderson.com/public\_works/fya.php](http://www.cityofhenderson.com/public_works/fya.php) ) > > The solid yellow arrow comes on at two different times during the cycle: > [ul] > [li] Green[/li][li] Solid yellow[/li][li] Flashing yellow[/li][li] Solid yellow again[/li][li] Red[/li][li] Then back to green again.[/li][/ul] > That must take some getting used to, in order to understand what’s going on without having to actually think it over each time you see it. > > ETA: The problem is, if you first notice the light when it’s solid yellow, you don’t know what it’s going to do next. I don’t know if that .gif is accurate. In both the [comparison with the old style](http://www.cityofhenderson.com/public_works/images/signal2.jpg) and the [youTube video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujp1JZilJhU&feature=player_embedded) linked to on that page, it looks like it’s Red, Flashing Yellow, Green, Solid Yellow, then back to Red. It never goes directly between solid and flashing yellow. Maybe they do want to have the possibility of having Green followed by flashing Yellow arrow, but that seems like a poorer solution to me than Yellow flashing followed by at least a brief Green. ---
**Author:** ![pilot141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e0b2c6/32.png) [@pilot141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pilot141)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/56 "2013-08-31T08:57:41Z")
I think some city out west (Phoenix maybe) has switched to having the green left turn arrows AFTER the straight green cycle. They know that people will be in the intersection, and if it is too busy for them to clear out under the normal green they get the left turn signal afterward. I am sure they are keeping statistics on the results, but I haven’t seen them. ---
**Author:** ![abderian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@abderian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abderian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/57 "2013-08-31T13:43:33Z")
A quick side note: According to the [New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/magazine/09left-handturn.html?_r=0), the United Parcel Service (UPS) claims that _avoiding_ left-hand turns has “helped the company shave 28.5 million miles off its delivery routes, which has resulted in savings of roughly three million gallons of gas and has reduced CO2 emissions by 31,000 metric tons.” And here’s [more](http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=3005890)on the [same](http://therazorreport.blogspot.ca/2009/03/ups-avoids-left-turns-to-save-fuel.html)topic. ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/58 "2013-08-31T15:48:45Z")
What’s confusing about the diagram and the video is they are describing two different situations. The diagram is a lag left (permissive then protected) and the video is a lead left (protected then permissive). Old style lead left: green arrow + green ball / yellow arrow + green ball / green ball / yellow ball / red ball New style lead left: green arrow / yellow arrow / red arrow / flashing yellow arrow / yellow arrow / red arrow. This new phasing makes traffic stop briefly at the end of the permissive portion to give vehicles going the other direction a chance to take over the right of way, something that isn’t possible with the old setup On the lag left diagram, they’re changing the phasing so that left turning traffic has a permissive movement the same time through traffic is stopped (as the other direction has a lead protective movement), something that isn’t generally possible with old style heads. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/59 "2013-09-01T01:15:40Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > What’s confusing about the diagram and the video is they are describing two different situations. The diagram is a lag left (permissive then protected) and the video is a lead left (protected then permissive). > > \< . . . \> (Really complicated-sounding explanation snipped.) My problem with all that is that it really sounds complicated to understand all that. That may or may not actually be a problem. The important thing is that the scheme should _tend_ to lead the driver to do the right thing without having to think about it. It needs to be a scheme that the driver can respond to correctly more-or-less instinctively (or at least, after a period of getting used to it). If the scheme that **Mdcastle** describes will work that way, then okay. But if the driver will have to take the time, on the spot, to figure all that out, that won’t do. Now, as for my complaint about the flashing yellow lights: First, when the driver first sees a yellow arrow, he has to watch it for a while to see if it’s flashing or solid. That’s a problem right there, to begin with. When I see any traffic light, I see it at a glance. I don’t keep my eye fixed on it to see if it’s flashing. There are other things I need to be seeing. Second, as I noted above, even when I see that it’s _not_ flashing, I am confused because I know that means it’s about to change, but I don’t know what it will change to next. (Here, I’m still working on the animation at the beginning of the link I had above, which has the solid yellow arrow at two phases in its cycle.) ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394/60 "2013-09-01T01:34:56Z")
That web site really is a mess, because they show three different phasing arrangements on the animation, the still pictures, and the video. Most of the ones I’ve seen when used with lead arrows operate like the video, where you always have a solid red arrow after a solid yellow arrow. Flashing Yellow Arrows aren’t perfect, but they do solve two problems- many drivers are too stupid to realize they don’t have a protected turn on a green ball, and lead / lag permissive phasing (1 direction has a lead, one has a lag) is by far the most efficient way to synchronize a series of lights, but it creates the “Yellow Trap”. The yellow trap can be solved by visors or programmable visibility signal heads so the through traffic can’t see the left turning heads, less successfully by attempting to educate drivers and using a sign (“Opposing traffic has Extended Green”), or by the flashing yellow arrow. Coincidently yellow trapped vehicles are the ones that have pulled into the intersection to wait for a turn, like what the OP asked about. One could say “just educate drivers about green balls and the yellow trap”, but traffic engineers are pragmatic about dealing with problems. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-into-the-intersection-to-turn-left-on-green/667394.md?page=4)