# Pulling the goalie **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 28, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728 "2003-04-28T17:49:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/1 "2003-04-28T17:49:01Z")
On Friday night the Canucks pulled off a miracle on ice, and tied up a playoff game against the Minnesota Wild with a second-and-a-half left in regular time, thus forcing an OT period and eventually winning the game 4-3. The performed this amazing feat with one of the most dubious moves in the history of the coolest game on earth-- pulling the goalie in the last two minutes. Now, I’m not a hardcore fan of the game, but even I could tell that the mad scramble that led to the tying goal was an exercise in random chance. I’ve seen goalies pulled before, and every other time it backfired-- giving the opponents a go-ahead goal into an empty net. So what I want some statistical sadist to answer is how many times has a team actually scored after pulling the goalie? And what percentage of the time does it actually work? ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_of\_Sandwhich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/91b2a8/32.png) [@Earl\_of\_Sandwhich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_of_Sandwhich)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/2 "2003-04-28T17:53:53Z")
Whoops! I thought this thread was going to be about one of my favorite solitary activities. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/3 "2003-04-28T18:05:20Z")
I don’t know if there are accurate statistics kept for this. My WAG is that it only works 10% of the time, but that’s just the feeling I’ve gotten from watching hockey games. It’s a high risk/high reward type of behavior, but if you’re trailing a hockey game that you MUST win, it is perfectly sensible to do. The idea is that with six skaters to the other’s five, you can create a lot of traffic in front of the net and your team can score on a deflection or with a shot that the goalie is screened out. And if you’re team is fortunate to be on a power play, you can go 6 on 4. Although in that situation, the defense can legally ice the puck and can fire at will at the opponent’s empty net from all over the ice. ---
**Author:** ![Parrothead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/59ef9b/32.png) [@Parrothead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parrothead)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/4 "2003-04-28T18:25:56Z")
My feeling is about the same as Bob’s… it’s successful between 10-20% of the time would be my guess (about the same as a power play). However, what I think tilts people’s perceptions is that the occurrance of an empty-net goal is FAR greater than the occurrance of a shorthanded goal. But those empty netters mean nothing. By the time you get to pulling your goalie, it’s score, or lose. Giving one up doesn’t really matter. IIRC, Mike Keenan used to pull his goalie very occasionally MUCH earlier in the game, to keep the other team on it’s toes. I don’t think he did it often, and I do not know if it EVER worked. Seems like a VERY dubious move if you are worried about giving one up. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/5 "2003-04-28T18:27:52Z")
I don’t have stats either. Consider, though, that losing by one goal is the same as losing by two goals, so pulling the goalie has very little downside, when there’s only enough time left in the game for “maybe one goal.” IOW, you’ve got nothing to lose at the point when you try it. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/6 "2003-04-28T18:33:29Z")
A parallel to it is the onside kick in football. If the other team is looking for it, it’s not often successful. But if you don’t have possession of the ball to score, there’s no harm in giving up the field position. ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/7 "2003-04-28T18:38:26Z")
Correct me if I’m wrong, **BobT** , but the team with five players should be able to shoot at the empty net “from all over the ice” anyway. Sure, if they miss, it’s icing, but if they don’t miss, it’s a goal. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/8 "2003-04-28T18:48:55Z")
Pulling the goalie? _wink wink_ _wink wink_ ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/9 "2003-04-28T18:50:46Z")
Yes, you can shoot from all over the ice even at even strength, but teams are loathe to have a face off in their own zone in that situation. ---
**Author:** ![NYR407](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@NYR407](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NYR407)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/10 "2003-04-28T18:50:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shoeless \* > \*\*Correct me if I’m wrong, **BobT** , but the team with five players should be able to shoot at the empty net “from all over the ice” anyway. Sure, if they miss, it’s icing, but if they don’t miss, it’s a goal. \*\* I’ll field this in BobT’s absence. Yes, they can shoot from all over the ice as well and as you state they will be charged with icing if they miss the net (provided the other team touches the puck first). The reason they would not want to do this is because after the icing call the face off will take place deep in their defensive zone. The losing team already has the extra skater, you don’t also want to give them a chance to set up a shot off the face off. Unless there is extreme pressure from the losing team or the skaters are extrememly tired it makes the most sense to skate with the puck over the red line until you take a shot at the empty net. ---
**Author:** ![phreesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@phreesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreesh)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/11 "2003-04-28T18:51:39Z")
Shoeless. That is the case, but it also would mean that there would be an icing call and a faceoff would occur in their own zone, allowing the team with the pulled goalie to set up their offence properly. It would also stop the clock. As an aside, in my league this winter, we were heading for a loss five times this season, pulled the goalie and managed to salvage the tie a remarkable three times. It is definitely a useful strategy. ---
**Author:** ![hockeynut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c68b51/32.png) [@hockeynut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hockeynut)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/12 "2003-04-28T20:05:21Z")
EN (empty net) or ENG (empty net goal) is an obscure goalie statistic that tracks how many times the team scores after pulling the goalie. Most statistic listings don’t use it. ESPN is one of the few. Curtis Joseph’s ENG was 3 this season in 61 games. Martin Brodeur’s ENG was 4 in 73 games. Unfortunately, this only gets you halfway there. I’m not aware of any statistic that tracks how many times a team pulled its goalie. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/13 "2003-04-28T20:16:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lieu \* > \*\*Pulling the goalie? > > _wink wink_ > > _wink wink_ \*\* Do you think Curtis Interuptis was on their team? ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/14 "2003-04-28T21:08:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shoeless \* > \*\*Correct me if I’m wrong, **BobT** , but the team with five players should be able to shoot at the empty net “from all over the ice” anyway. Sure, if they miss, it’s icing, but if they don’t miss, it’s a goal. \*\* Shooting on an empty net is not as easy as it sounds. Pucks have a strange habit of not going exactly straight. Consider that most empty net situations occur at the end of the game when the ice is at its worst. Pro players really tear up the ice and create a lot of snow on the surface during the course of play. While many players are remarkably accurate with their shots, to launch a long range shot in a pressure situation and have it go in is not as high percentage as you might think. You do not want a face-off in your own end when the other team has an extra skater. Every team has a designed play for this situation. By inviting the situation you are hanging your goalie out to dry. Notice that players rarely shoot on an empty net unless they are sure of not creating an icing situation. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/15 "2003-04-28T21:17:24Z")
I believe that in nearly all of the occasions where a goalie has scored a goal into the opponent’s empty net, the team was short-handed, so the goalie didn’t have to worry about an icing call. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2003, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/16 "2003-04-28T23:05:50Z")
Not necessarily. There have been eight goals by seven goaltenders (Bryan Hextall had two) in the NHL. Two never actually shot the puck (they were the last player on their team to touch the puck before the other team put it into their own net; IIRC, as least one of those was in an empty net situation and someone missed a pass). The others all appeared to be in empty-net situations. Goalies sometimes don’t care about a possible icing call. Ed Giacomin would often try to shoot when he saw an empty net; he figured he could defend against any face-off in his own zone. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/17 "2003-04-29T00:03:09Z")
I think that was Ron Hextall. Bryan Hextall scored a lot of goals (187), but then again he was playing right wing. The goalies who have scored are: Billy Smith, Islanders, 1979 (Rockies player put puck into own net and Smith credited with goal) Ron Hextall, Flyers, 1987 against Boston and 1989 playoffs against Washington Chris Osgood, Detroit, 1996 against Hartford Martin Brodeur, New Jersey, 1997 playoffs against Montreal and 2000 regular season against Philadelphia (accidental) Damian Rhodes, Ottawa (accidental goal) Jose Theodore, Montreal versus Islanders Hextall’s 1987 goal came when the Flyers were shorthanded as was the one in 1989. I can’t tell from the story if Brodeur scored shorthanded or not. Theodore claimed he wasn’t trying to score. ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/18 "2003-04-29T05:52:26Z")
Evgeni Nabokov of the Sharks also scored an empty-netter, against Vancouver I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/19 "2003-04-29T13:09:08Z")
Anecdotal evidence for the OP: I did see pulling the goalie work two games in a row in a college playoff series. In the second game, the home team was down by two with 6:30 to play when they had a 5 minute major called against them. Score shorthanded, kill the rest of the penalty, pull the goalie with 1:20 to go, score the tying goal, no problem. I had to tell that story to prevent me trying to tell my personal story of scoring while playing (soccer) goalkeeper, which is just too off topic. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728/20 "2003-04-29T14:55:18Z")
Having a sixth player in the offensive zone can really make the difference. The free offensive player can crash the crease, and if the puck does come free in front of the goal there is a good chance with the extra skater of getting a solid shot on goal under such circumstances. The chances of the offense coming up with a loose puck are substantially better, too. Pulling the goaltender is not a sure thing, by any means, but when the choice is between losing by one and losing by two… Of course, pulling the goaltender during a delayed penalty is entirely different; that’s almost a zero-risk proposition as the only way one can be scored on is if you accidentially shoot the puck into your own goal. I’ve seen penalty calls delayed for up to 45 seconds, and twice have seen goals scored during such “instant power plays”. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-the-goalie/171728.md?page=2)