# Pulling US troops from Germany **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 30, 2020, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773 "2020-07-30T01:26:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/21 "2020-07-30T15:48:23Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I’m just not sure of how strong a point it is. Germany could decide to pay for gold buttons for everyone’s dress uniforms. That would increase spending per GDP, but not enable us to spend less But isn’t that the idea? If other NATO countries had stronger military, then the US wouldn’t have to spend so much? (Whether you choose to continue to do so is your business). ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/22 "2020-07-30T15:52:03Z")
I see what you’re sayin now - sorry for the misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/23 "2020-07-30T15:55:19Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > But isn’t that the idea? If other NATO countries had stronger military, then the US wouldn’t have to spend so much? (Whether you choose to continue to do so is your business). If that spending corresponds directly to something replaceable that we’re currently spending on. Gold buttons aren’t. Tanks _might_ be. But the guidelines doesn’t seem to care one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/24 "2020-07-30T16:04:44Z")
True, it does seem pretty arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/25 "2020-07-30T16:14:45Z")
Germany is not paying 2%, but neither is Italy or Belgium. Trump can look at numbers but puts little value on goodwill. Moving 1/3 the troops may have benefits I don’t see. But is it worth the costs, which are tangible? I wonder where this idea came from? I could go for some blini. On an unrelated note. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/26 "2020-07-30T16:32:11Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > What Trump has done, as he has with so many things in his clumsy bull in a china shop fashion, is just brought distasteful facts front and centre. He’s got that fantastic Inspector Clouseau quality, doesn’t he? When he said he was going to expose all this fraud and corruption I sort of imagined a straightforward battery of investigations, reports, evidence, etc. But no, he has just showed us what it is possible to get away with if you install yes-men in strategic positions and exploit legal loopholes and polite inertia. Absolutely fascinating to watch, if a bit unsettling. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/27 "2020-07-30T16:40:43Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Germany is not paying 2%, but neither is Italy or Belgium. It’s worth noting that the 2% of GDP defense spending is a goal for 2024 so none of those countries is actually anything remotely like not paying their NATO bills. Cite: [Three charts that show why Trump thinks NATO is a bad deal](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/03/three-charts-that-show-why-trump-thinks-nato-is-a-bad-deal.html) > In 2014, all NATO members agreed to increase their defense spending to 2% of gross domestic product by 2024. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/28 "2020-07-30T16:47:27Z")
While we’re on the topic, why not just move _all_ US troops in Germany to Poland? Not only would they be more “forward” (closer to Russia,) but the Poles are apparently a lot more pro-American than the Germans are, and want U.S. troops much more. Position-wise, it would make for even better defense against Russia. Is it that facilities like Ramstein are much bigger and better? (Not so much about Trump, who will be out of office in a few months anyway, but rather a bigger U.S. policy question overall) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/29 "2020-07-30T17:07:28Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > While we’re on the topic, why not just move _all_ US troops in Germany to Poland? Not only would they be more “forward” (closer to Russia,) but the Poles are apparently a lot more pro-American than the Germans are, and want U.S. troops much more. Position-wise, it would make for even better defense against Russia. Is it that facilities like Ramstein are much bigger and better? It’s a questionable strategy. Defense in depth usually works better than putting all of your troops in forward positions. Doing that can allow an enemy to overwhelm your troops in the opening hours of an attack and break through to the undefended territory behind the front. A lot of experts felt that NATO troops in West Germany were vulnerable to this back when Warsaw Pact troops were stationed in East Germany and Czechoslovakia. From a strategic point of view, the best plan to defend NATO countries from a Russian attack would be to keep the bulk of our troops in Germany, while maintaining a smaller picket force in Poland and the Baltic states. The purpose of the picket would be to slow down a Russian attack while the main force behind the front lines prepared a counterattack. From a political point of view, this was a problem. It created the impression NATO was willing to sacrifice the countries on the border to protect the countries farther away. In the sixties and seventies, this was an argument made by West Germany; that we should defend Germany with the same forces we would use to defend France or Britain. Not the argument has shifted east and it’s a question of defending Poland with the same forces we would use to defend Germany. From an economic point of view, this is a bad idea. We’ve spend seventy years building up a military infrastructure for American troops in Germany. If we shift the bulk of our troops to Poland, we’re going to have to spend a lot of money duplicating that effort. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/30 "2020-07-30T17:18:45Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > While we’re on the topic, why not just move _all_ US troops in Germany to Poland? It was quite a bit of work to get our troops into Germany in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/31 "2020-07-30T17:20:44Z")
[Here’s a 2018-era org chart of USAEUR showing what is where.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/US_Army_Europe_Structure_2018.png) Most of the Army troops in Germany are training and support troops- there’s only a Stryker brigade (“Regiment” since it’s “cavalry”), an artillery brigade (MLRS) and an aviation brigade, as far as combat troops are concerned. There is also an entire division-sized theater sustainment command as well- that’s probably where most of the manpower is, and the stuff that could probably easily be moved elsewhere. I mean, there’s no reason that the 409th Contracting Support Brigade has to be stationed in Germany, for example. The Air Force has one fighter wing, and one airlift wing stationed in Germany at Ramstein AB, and a ground operations wing there as well (the support component). The Marines and Navy have no more than a nominal presence in Germany, and primarily in headquarters units. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/32 "2020-07-30T18:51:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > From a strategic point of view, the best plan to defend NATO countries from a Russian attack would be to keep the bulk of our troops in Germany, while maintaining a smaller picket force in Poland and the Baltic states. The purpose of the picket would be to slow down a Russian attack while the main force behind the front lines prepared a counterattack. > > From a political point of view, this was a problem. It created the impression NATO was willing to sacrifice the countries on the border to protect the countries farther away. In the sixties and seventies, this was an argument made by West Germany; that we should defend Germany with the same forces we would use to defend France or Britain. Not the argument has shifted east and it’s a question of defending Poland with the same forces we would use to defend Germany. Poland got screwed in WWII; England and France went to war over Poland, and the Russians occupied it after the war. Poland always seems to get screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/33 "2020-07-30T19:06:32Z")
Thanks, Little Nemo for a very cogent analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/34 "2020-07-30T19:23:18Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Poland always seems to get screwed. Geography is mostly not Poland’s friend in this regard. With few good natural barriers (arguably none), it consists mostly of plains which had discontinuous pockets of settlement in the pre-modern period. Throughout its history as a state it has tended to both expand and contract rapidly. The title of the primary academic survey history of Poland in English is titled [God’s Playground](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God%27s_Playground), very much in the sense of a mischievous God. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/35 "2020-07-30T19:43:31Z")
We are a laughing stock. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/36 "2020-07-30T19:47:05Z")
In Russia and China maybe. But not in NATO countries. You only laugh at the ineptitude of others when you don’t have to worry about the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/37 "2020-07-30T20:03:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You only laugh at the ineptitude of others when you don’t have to worry about the consequences. That’s even worse then. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/38 "2020-07-30T20:27:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > From an economic point of view, this is a bad idea. We’ve spend seventy years building up a military infrastructure for American troops in Germany. If we shift the bulk of our troops to Poland, we’re going to have to spend a lot of money duplicating that effort. Uh-huh… and guess whose buddies will get the contracts to do the building… ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/39 "2020-07-30T21:18:51Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > He complains about this but I don’t really get it. AIUI, it’s not like there’s some unfulfilled NATO budget that the US is paying the difference on. The requirement is for X percent of GDP (or something) to be spent on military. So I’m not seeing how Germany spending or not spending another dollar affects our spending. Oh, I’m not saying Trump’s position is necessarily logical or sensible; it’s just another one of his weird-ass beliefs, like China has paid for the tariffs that he slapped on their goods, or COVID-19 was going to disappear as soon as the weather got warm. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773/40 "2020-07-30T21:39:12Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Uh-huh… and guess whose buddies will get the contracts to do the building… It could be Putin’s buddies getting the contracts to build bases in Eastern Europe depending on how this plays out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pulling-us-troops-from-germany/916773.md?page=3)