# Punch-card villains sees the light & help the good guys. Should they get a reward? (long) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 27, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punch-card-villains-sees-the-light-help-the-good-guys-should-they-get-a-reward-long/558571 "2010-10-27T19:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punch-card-villains-sees-the-light-help-the-good-guys-should-they-get-a-reward-long/558571/41 "2010-10-28T19:12:12Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Pallas is a god only in the sense that Q is; she’s interested in being worshipped. Obviously that should be _not interested_ ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punch-card-villains-sees-the-light-help-the-good-guys-should-they-get-a-reward-long/558571/42 "2010-10-28T19:21:58Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > As I envison the Prophet, she’s\* not simply allowed but required **to oppose people using magic for evil purposes**. If two nations were fighting using non-magical means, she’d be allowed to mediate but not impose her will. > > _Not setting down moral law_ means, well, not trying to establish a religion. Pallas is a god only in the sense that Q is; she’s interested in being worshipped. Okay, she’s more a god than Q as she and her pantheon created the mortal races, but she’s hardly Yahweh, or even Odin. Who’s defining good and evil? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punch-card-villains-sees-the-light-help-the-good-guys-should-they-get-a-reward-long/558571/43 "2010-10-28T19:45:58Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Who’s defining good and evil? Hell if I know, dude. I only wrote this scenario yesterday and made it up as I went along. But okay. I’d say Pallas would define good & evil as _creating happiness for as many as possible, while minimum harm to others, all the while trying to respect respect free will, even when you see people doing stuff that you judge unwise_. I don’t imagine her as being omnipotent in the silly, self-contradictory sense of _able to do anything that can be expressed in words_; rather, she’s the baddest mama jamma in the world, but there’s still stuff she can’t do, and a lot more stuff she _could_ do but declines to do; and conceivably if the rest of her pantheon ganged up on her, she might be hard-pressed to defeat them all. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punch-card-villains-sees-the-light-help-the-good-guys-should-they-get-a-reward-long/558571/44 "2010-10-28T20:45:04Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > a world peopled by whatever legendary creatures you wish to postulate. The Magical Healing Beast cures everybody and we all go out for beer and nachos. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punch-card-villains-sees-the-light-help-the-good-guys-should-they-get-a-reward-long/558571/45 "2010-10-28T21:36:10Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Who’s defining good and evil? The winners, in our world. In Pangea, there is a whole different dynamic going on. Consider if we were to determine that what we would call the “supernatural” is indeed real, contactable, and beyond our ability to effect other than through its own arcane rules. Our definition of good and evil would become clearer cut as well. Good entities try to live in peace with others and work for the benefit of themselves and others doing their best not to harm others in their cause. Bad entities work solely for the benefit of themselves and actively seek and effect the misery of others. It is pretty easy. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punch-card-villains-sees-the-light-help-the-good-guys-should-they-get-a-reward-long/558571/46 "2010-10-28T21:51:13Z")
a) Jim’s daughter gets the cure, since none of this was her fault b) Patricia gets the cure because the OP says that the Prophet is, at most, to teach by example. Withholding a simple cure out of vengeance would be setting a bad example and setting a good example is explicitly the Prophet’s job. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punch-card-villains-sees-the-light-help-the-good-guys-should-they-get-a-reward-long/558571/47 "2010-10-28T21:52:17Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > But okay. I’d say Pallas would define good & evil as _creating happiness for as many as possible, while minimum harm to others, all the while trying to respect respect free will, even when you see people doing stuff that you judge unwise_. I ask because doesn’t this answer the questions? Wouldn’t Pallas see it as a good thing to extend medical care to Jim and Patricia, regardless of what they may have done in the past? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punch-card-villains-sees-the-light-help-the-good-guys-should-they-get-a-reward-long/558571/48 "2010-10-28T22:05:24Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I ask because doesn’t this answer the questions? Wouldn’t Pallas see it as a good thing to extend medical care to Jim and Patricia, regardless of what they may have done in the past? Well, Pallas is the god of Pangaea, not Earth. She may well think humans are bunch of feckless, degenerate wankers, and the second-happiest day of her immortal life was when she shook the dust of Terra off her feet. The happiest day, of course, was when she figured out how to reconstruct herself from quarks & electrons after her Intrinsic Field was subtracted. 😉 Anyway – she’s not available to be consulted, to the Prophet has to use her own judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punch-card-villains-sees-the-light-help-the-good-guys-should-they-get-a-reward-long/558571/49 "2010-10-28T22:58:40Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The thing is, there is no way to consider Jim anything other than a mercenary. He was in no danger. His home and homeland were in no danger. He was not going to be conscripted or attacked. He had to go out of his way to participate in this war, and he did so because he wanted a reward. Admittedly his intentions were understandable, but even he clearly believes that the choice he made was immoral. Otherwwise why would he switch sides? Good point. I was going to call that out explicitely as a caveat but forgot. I think he falls somewhere inbetween: he’s not just fighting for just anyone, this is the only place for a cure for his daughter’s (admittedly non-fatal) condition, yet also he’s got no previous allegiance to the country he’s fighting for. I guess I assumed, entirely without it being specified, that the war was presented to him as mostly justified, and (blinded by wanting to believe or not) he went along with it. After all, in most “protagonist enters alternate universe” stories, they generally accept what they’re told by a character they personally trust based on gut feeling, and the trope encourages us to accept this, and only occasionally is this revealed as a horrible shell game. When the Lucy went to Narnia, Tumnus at first tried to kidnap her for the witch, and then reverted and told her how nasty the witch was – but that could completely have been a lie. That would give Jim some reason to fight, if he thought the war was justified, at least as much as an average war. Of course, my assumption was pure assumption, it’s equally possible that he was told “I’m evil and I want you to kill all these innocent people in exchange for a reward” and he knew what he was doing but kidded himself until later. In which case he gets some kudos for changing his mind, but much less. And I would be happy to give the cure to his daughter, but hesitant about rewarding him in any way (other than basic medical care and freedom that many people have assigned everyone). ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punch-card-villains-sees-the-light-help-the-good-guys-should-they-get-a-reward-long/558571/50 "2010-10-28T23:01:18Z")
For that matter if Pangea is more technologically advanced than Earth, but have just had their economy shot by a big war, there might be some trade beneficial to both sides if the portals support that, regardless of who may “deserve” help. But that’s not really relevant, and almost certainly the inter-universe transit is extremely limited. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punch-card-villains-sees-the-light-help-the-good-guys-should-they-get-a-reward-long/558571/51 "2010-10-28T23:54:44Z")
> [@Shade](#): > > For that matter if Pangea is more technologically advanced than Earth, but have just had their economy shot by a big war, there might be some trade beneficial to both sides if the portals support that, regardless of who may “deserve” help. But that’s not really relevant, and almost certainly the inter-universe transit is extremely limited. I feel confident in saying that Pallas wills no such thing. She’d likely say, “Regular congress with humans? Fuck that shit. Those idiots will worship anything, and frankly I can’t be arsed to look after another species, thank you very much.” 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punch-card-villains-sees-the-light-help-the-good-guys-should-they-get-a-reward-long/558571.md?page=2)