# Punctuation: "inside," or "outside", quotation marks? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 12, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513 "2003-12-12T03:15:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/1 "2003-12-12T03:15:58Z")
I was raised properly; I always put “punctuation,” or commas and periods at least, inside quotation marks. “Baby, it’s cold outside,” he said. Of course other punctuation, such as semicolons, is another matter, which I don’t want to discuss here. But even as a wee tot I felt the “commas inside” rule didn’t make much sense. To my way of thinking, the comma refers to the whole piece inside the quotes, not the very last word. But I ignored my misgivings and followed the rule. Then, a couple of years ago, I started studying programming. In programming languages, commas generally go outside of quotes, as is only logical. You’re making a statement like “quote”, comma, “quote”, and what’s inside the quotation marks is what counts; the comma is the connector BETWEEN the quotes. A comma inside the quote marks would just throw things off, so naturally you put it outside. ```auto I would like "eggs", "bread", and "bananas". ``` There is no ambiguity here. I want only eggs, not eggs plus a comma. What’s inside the quote marks is inviolate – the item itself. The comma separates items from one another. But as I have converted to this way of thinking (confirming my infant suspicions) since I began studying programming. NOW, I’m schizophrenic about it. At times, in general writing, I punctuate inside the quote marks; at times, outside. I can’t make up my mind which method is right. This thread exists because tonight I noticed myself using BOTH methods in a single post. I’m not totally ignorant, just undecided. So, which method do Dopers prefer? ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/2 "2003-12-12T03:28:41Z")
If you’re writing English, follow the accepted syntax and put the punctuation inside the quotes. If you’re writing code, follow the accepted syntax of the language you’re writing in. Simple. ---
**Author:** ![rkts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c4cdca/32.png) [@rkts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rkts)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/3 "2003-12-12T03:29:51Z")
Traditionally, the British put the comma outside the quotes, while the Americans put it inside. But basically it’s a matter of preference. My personal rule: if it’s one word, the comma goes inside; anything else, the comma goes outside. That way there is no possibility of misinterpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angel_of_the_lord/32/2949_2.png) [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_the_Lord)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/4 "2003-12-12T03:34:06Z")
Inside the quotes in regular everyday English. That’s been drilled into me, and it’s not a big enough deal that I wanna change it. ---
**Author:** ![Lisa-go-Blind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Lisa-go-Blind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lisa-go-Blind)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/5 "2003-12-12T03:34:08Z")
I don’t think it really matters as long as you are consistent. I put the comma inside the quotation marks because it’s AP (Associated Press) style. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/6 "2003-12-12T03:37:19Z")
I’m not consistent, that’s the problem. My friend the brilliant millionaire retired programmer has no sympathy for me. He coded to impress Bill Gates, but cringes when he sees a comma outside the quotes. I suppose I just need to accept that written English is a language with its own rules, not necessarily the ones I want them to be. ---
**Author:** ![rkts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c4cdca/32.png) [@rkts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rkts)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/7 "2003-12-12T03:39:17Z")
On rereading I see that you may be only talking about dialogue. In that case, yes, the comma must go inside. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/8 "2003-12-12T05:12:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rkts \* > \*\*Traditionally, the British put the comma outside the quotes, while the Americans put it inside. > \*\* You answered my question, right here! I have seen both usages in books, and always wondered what the difference was. Now I know. My hat’s off to you, sir! ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/9 "2003-12-12T08:35:16Z")
I believe there’s a factual answer to this question, which would probably be to write: “Baby, it’s cold outside”, he said. or: “Baby, it’s cold outside,” he said, “but it’s nice and warm in here.” based on whether or not the punctuation is part of the quote. Now I could be wrong on the commas but I do specifically know that with sentence-ending punctuation, this rule holds: Did you hear the security guard ask “what are you doing here?” Did you hear the security guard say “you shouldn’t be here”? ---
**Author:** ![Audrey\_Levins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Audrey\_Levins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Audrey_Levins)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/10 "2003-12-12T09:18:48Z")
As an English major in college, I was a bit unsure about this “rule” myself…so I wrote a paper putting the punctuation on the outside of the quotation marks. And every single one was red-flagged by my prof. (It was a kick-ass paper, so I still got an A, though. :D) To me it just looks wrong to put the punctuation outside the quotation. I’ve always been pretty damn good at “proper English,” but I can’t quote the rules, so “this looks wrong to me” has always been my barometer. [sub]Probably doesn’t help, but hell…[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/11 "2003-12-12T12:02:48Z")
I believe **cityboy916** is almost, but not quite, right. Disclaimer: this is British usage. Punctuation goes inside the quotation marks only when it forms part of the material being quoted. If a complete sentence is being quoted, but does not end the sentence in which it is being quoted, the full stop (period) becomes a comma. He said: “What a ridiculous, half-baked, complicated rule.” “What a ridiculous, half-baked, complicated rule,” he said. He described the rule as “ridiculous”, “half-baked” and “complicated”. He disliked the “rule”. Now can somebody tell me what the equivalent rules would be in the US? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/12 "2003-12-12T14:35:33Z")
As already pointed out, US style puts the comma within the quote and UK style puts it after the quotes. There is nothing inherently more logical about doing it one way instead of the other. Then again, there is not inherently logical about language and usage, either. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/13 "2003-12-12T15:05:30Z")
Follow the rules and put it inside the quotation marks, _unless_ it would be confusing. For example, if you’re discussing a programming language in English and want to make it clear the period doesn’t belong with what’s quoted, put it outside. People who’d sacrifice readability and conciseness for the sake of obeying an arbitrary rule are silly. ---
**Author:** ![overlyverbose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9dc877/32.png) [@overlyverbose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overlyverbose)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/14 "2003-12-12T17:35:01Z")
I usually go by the AP Stylebook. According to that, "Placement with other punctuation: Follow these long-established printers’ rules: - The period and the comma always go within the quotation marks - The dash, the semicolon, the question mark and the exclamation point go within the quotation marks when they apply to the quoted matter only. They go outside when they apply to the whole sentence." Also, when you say “I want eggs, bread and bananas,” you want all of those things, not necessarily separately. To me, anyway, if you were to say that you want “eggs”, “bread” and “bananas”, it makes me think that you would like them all to be given to you separately, instead of handed to you at the same time. Also, it gives you a longer pause than necessary between items. When I see quotes, I usually add a slight pause. For example, the President said “no new taxes, levies or tarrifs.” That way you have a continuous unbroken series. But if you say the President said “no new taxes”, “levies”, “or tarrifs”, it not only breaks up the sentence quite a bit visually, but it also forces you to add that last comma before the or. But that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![TheNerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/858c86/32.png) [@TheNerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheNerd)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/15 "2003-12-12T18:50:32Z")
Many people treat AP style as if it was handed down from God. I prefer logical style (what’s in the quotes is what’s quoted and nothing else). I am also a programmer. Take that as you will. Any rule that has to use the word “except” or “unless” is probably not a good rule. Except this one. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![overlyverbose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9dc877/32.png) [@overlyverbose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overlyverbose)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/16 "2003-12-12T19:09:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheNerd \* > \*\*Many people treat AP style as if it was handed down from God. I prefer logical style (what’s in the quotes is what’s quoted and nothing else). I am also a programmer. Take that as you will. > \*\* Hey, I’m paid to treat AP style as though it’s gospel. Or at least I will be until January 2. 😃 So are a lot of other people. It’s a widely accepted way of writing which, in most cases, follows all the grammatical rules most people learned in grade school. Personally, as long as I can read and understand someone’s writing, I couldn’t give a shit how they write it. But, having a widely accepted guide to grammar and style is helpful. Also, I think most people would assume that someone asking for “eggs, bread and bananas” isn’t asking for eggs with a side of comma. To me, additional quotes would be extraneous and tedious and inefficient to write. I’d be more likely to forget a quote if I had to add one around every single item rather than just around the series. In my experience, simpler writing is always preferable over the more complicated. [hijack] Which brings me to another point. Words and phrases like “irregardless” and “go ahead and” bug the shit out of me. The “ir” in front of “irregardless” is completely unnecessary, as is the entire phrase “go ahead and.” Why can’t I just do something instead of go ahead and do it, or going to go ahead and do it for that matter? And, irregardless of the fact that the “ir” is completely unnecessary, why to people use it regardless? Ok, I’m done ranting. Sorry 'bout that. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2003, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/17 "2003-12-12T19:18:50Z")
From _The Jargon File_: > [@](#): > > Hackers tend to use quotes as balanced delimiters like parentheses, much to the dismay of American editors. Thus, if “Jim is going” is a phrase, and so are “Bill runs” and “Spock groks”, then hackers generally prefer to write: “Jim is going”, “Bill runs”, and “Spock groks”. This is incorrect according to standard American usage (which would put the continuation commas and the final period inside the string quotes); however, it is counter-intuitive to hackers to mutilate literal strings with characters that don’t belong in them. Given the sorts of examples that can come up in discussions of programming, American-style quoting can even be grossly misleading. When communicating command lines or small pieces of code, extra characters can be a real pain in the neck. > > Consider, for example, a sentence in a vi tutorial that looks like this: > > Then delete a line from the file by typing “dd”. > > Standard usage would make this > > Then delete a line from the file by typing “dd.” > > but that would be very bad — because the reader would be prone to type the string d-d-dot, and it happens that in vi(1), dot repeats the last command accepted. The net result would be to delete two lines! > > The Jargon File follows hackish usage throughout. > > Interestingly, a similar style is now preferred practice in Great Britain, though the older style (which became established for typographical reasons having to do with the aesthetics of comma and quotes in typeset text) is still accepted there. Hart’s Rules and the Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors call the hacker-like style ‘new’ or ‘logical’ quoting. This returns British English to the style many other languages (including Spanish, French, Italian, Catalan, and German) have been using all along. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-inside-or-outside-quotation-marks/218513/18 "2003-12-13T02:33:57Z")
Slight clarification: I would not write “eggs”, “bread”, and “bananas” that way, nor even “eggs,” bread," and “bananas,” in ordinary communication. Just overusing quote marks within a single sentence as an exercise to make the distinction clear. I basically agree with the hackish reasoning in Brother Cadfael’s quote, although as I said before, I just need to get in the habit of appropriate usage for each language. I also give some reverence to the AP Style Guide, and the Chicago Manual of Style, but my true allegiance is to William Fowler, who says the same thing anyway.