# Punctuation question; "quotes." or "quotes".
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [December 5, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131 "2004-12-05T00:27:41Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/1 "2004-12-05T00:27:41Z")
Does the punctuation belong inside or outside the quotes? I thought _always_ inside. But now, for some reason, “say what?” looks funny. “Say what”? looks fine. Especially at the end of a so-called “sentence.”
Peace,
mangeorge
---
### Author:  [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/2 "2004-12-05T00:32:31Z")
“Inside the quotes.”
---
### Author:  [@Nightwatch\_Trailer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightwatch_Trailer)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/3 "2004-12-05T00:33:19Z")
As far as I know, punctuation that is not actually part of a quote goes outside, except for commas and periods.
Did he say his name was “mangeorge”?
He asked, “is my name mangeorge?”
He said his name is “mangeorge.”
He said his name is “mangeorge,” but I don’t believe him.
His name is “mangeorge”; I find this interesting.
---
### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/4 "2004-12-05T00:38:16Z")
By longstanding if arbitrary custom, the period or comma **always** is placed inside the quotation marks, regardless of what precisely it is punctuating. There is no clear logical statement underlying this sequence; it’s an arbitrary usage.
The question mark or exclamation point, on the other hand, occupy the “logical” setting – inside or outside according to whether the quoted utterance or the sentence in which it syntactically resides is interrogative or exclamatory. E.g.
He asked, “Do you know?” [ul]
[li]He asked, “Do you know?”[/li][li]Did she answer, “Yes, I do”?[/li][li]“Kill the umpire!” he shouted.[/li][li]I can’t believe you asked, “What’s the third word ending in -gry?”! _(Note the arrangement of both optional marks in this example.)_[/li][/ul]
I’m not clear on the placement of the semicolon; I believe it always goes outside the quotation marks.
---
### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/5 "2004-12-05T00:39:00Z")
This is a matter of style. American style guides generally put all the punctuation inside the quotes, even if it’s non part of the actual quotation.
Did he say his name was “mangeorge?”
He asked, “is my name mangeorge?”
He said his name is “mangeorge.”
He said his name is “mangeorge,” but I don’t believe him.
As for this one:
> [@](#):
>
> His name is “mangeorge”; I find this interesting.
There should not be any quotes at all. 🙂
---
### Author:  [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/6 "2004-12-05T00:44:41Z")
Why? His name isn’t really Mangeorge.
---
### Author:  [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/7 "2004-12-05T01:01:24Z")
It varies by location and custom. Often a publication’s style guide will specify this usage.
I personally place the puctuation outside the quotes unless it is part of the quoted text. Looks a bit odd at times, but it increases clarity… and that’s everything when you are a technical writer.
The [Hackers’ Dictionary](http://www.drbbs.com/jsw/jargon/jargon_toc.html) has a few interesting things to [url=“[http://www.drbbs.com/jsw/jargon/jargon\_6.html](http://www.drbbs.com/jsw/jargon/jargon_6.html)”]say(/url]:
> [@](#):
>
> Hackers tend to use quotes as balanced delimiters like parentheses, much to the dismay of American editors. Thus, if “Jim is going” is a phrase, and so are “Bill runs” and “Spock groks”, then hackers generally prefer to write: “Jim is going”, “Bill runs”, and “Spock groks”. This is incorrect according to standard American usage (which would put the continuation commas and the final period inside the string quotes)…
>
> Given the sorts of examples that can come up in discussions of programming, American-style quoting can even be grossly misleading…
>
> Consider, for example, a sentence in a vi tutorial that looks like this:
>
> ```
> Then delete a line from the file by typing "dd".
>
> ```
>
> Standard usage would make this
>
> ```
> Then delete a line from the file by typing "dd."
>
> ```
>
> but that would be very bad – because the reader would be prone to type the string d-d-dot, and it happens that in vi(1) dot repeats the last command accepted. The net result would be to delete two lines…
>
> Interestingly, a similar style is now preferred practice in Great Britain, though the older style (which became established for typographical reasons having to do with the aesthetics of comma and quotes in typeset text) is still accepted there. “Hart’s Rules” and the “Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors” call the hacker-like style `new' or `logical’ quoting.
---
### Author:  [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/8 "2004-12-05T01:02:26Z")
Crud. Shoulda previewed. Here’s that link:
[http://www.drbbs.com/jsw/jargon/jargon\_6.html](http://www.drbbs.com/jsw/jargon/jargon_6.html)
---
### Author:  [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/9 "2004-12-05T01:12:34Z")
I agree with everything said up to this point if you are referring to quotes as _what someone said._
But if you are using quote marks (single or double) to emphasize or set apart a phrase or word that was not actually spoken, the usage appears to be different. This is an observation I have made over the years, and I have been unable to find a formal reference to it. (This includes a book that all writers should have, excellent, excellent: _The Gregg Reference Manual,_ by William A. Sabin.)
Examples:
What do you mean red? We don’t call that “red”.
The flavor of the month is often “tasteless”.
But:
He said, “The flavor of the month is often tasteless.”
Or, perhaps:
He said, “The flavor of the month is often ‘tasteless’.”
I have noticed that _Jeopardy!_ is using this kind of punctuation, and I highly regard their staff on such issues.
On preview, I see **Sunspace** is tackling this “issue”.
---
### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/10 "2004-12-05T02:03:12Z")
It should, of course, also be noted that all punctuation rules are superseded when what is being attempted is the precise statement of code to be used, for example:
– To produce an Icelandic edh, type in “&something;” (Material in quotes is the specific coding to be typed; omit a period to close the sentence because it would confuse the information to be conveyed.)
– Open a dialog box and go to “[www.straightdope.com](http://www.straightdope.com)” (Again, omit the closing period.)
On the semicolon, research indicates it does go outside quotation marks:
He said, “I am happy”; his expression belied his words.
---
### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/11 "2004-12-05T04:25:43Z")
**Polycarp’s** posts and **Nightwatch Trailer’s** examples are accurate, but for the United States only. My understanding is the the standards may be different in other countries.
(I’m a retired English teacher who begs your indulgence when I make mistakes. I know the rules fairly well, but I’ve becone lazy.)
---
### Author:  [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/12 "2004-12-05T04:41:40Z")
Yeah, I wondered about quotes used to mean “so called” too. Like “Death Ray” for example. Some “experts” call that usage “abuse”.
---
### Author:  [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/13 "2004-12-05T05:24:28Z")
> [@mangeorge](#):
>
> Yeah, I wondered about quotes used to mean “so called” too. Like “Death Ray” for example. Some “experts” call that usage “abuse”.
\
I really wish people knew that “” does not equal italics. It’s hard to read a child’s paper when they use quotes for emphasis, so they think, which makes their paper sound extremely sarcastic often at their own expense.
Something like: I really enjoy writing, because I’m really good at it. My teachers say I’m really creative, and I like to use my imagination. Someday I’d like to be a writer and really make something of myself like Stephen King has.
Comes off quite differently if they throw in some quotes like this:
I really enjoy writing, because I’m really “good” at it. My teachers say I’m really “creative,” and I like to use my imagination. Someday I’d like to be a writer and really “make something of myself” like Stephen King has.
It’s a weird trend I’ve seen from third graders all the way up to 12th graders. Someone should take them aside and point out how much of a disservice they’re doing themselves by abusing quotes (and ftr I never see the kids, so I can’t be that person.)
---
### Author:  [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/14 "2004-12-05T05:38:47Z")
> [@Sunspace](#):
>
> The [Hackers’ Dictionary](http://www.drbbs.com/jsw/jargon/jargon_toc.html) has a few interesting things…
Interesting observation about the modern evolution of written language. The hacker/geek culture (of which I am a part) extensively communicate amongst each other by written word. Years ago written English (such as newspapers, books, etc.) was defined as correct by editors. These editors were professionally trained. The average people were communicating amongst themselves orally. People now extensively read “geek English”. The Internet (particularly the WWW) is a form of publication; and it is geeks putting up web pages. Internet fora (including even the SD) are crawling with geeks. Little doubt that geeks are exerting an influence on the written form of the language today.
---
### Author:  [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/15 "2004-12-05T05:45:08Z")
> [@elfkin477](#):
>
> \
>
> I really wish people knew that “” does not equal italics. It’s hard to read a child’s paper when they use quotes for emphasis, so they think, which makes their paper sound extremely sarcastic often at their own expense.
>
> Something like: I really enjoy writing, because I’m really good at it. My teachers say I’m really creative, and I like to use my imagination. Someday I’d like to be a writer and really make something of myself like Stephen King has.
>
> Comes off quite differently if they throw in some quotes like this:
> I really enjoy writing, because I’m really “good” at it. My teachers say I’m really “creative,” and I like to use my imagination. Someday I’d like to be a writer and really “make something of myself” like Stephen King has.
>
> It’s a weird trend I’ve seen from third graders all the way up to 12th graders. Someone should take them aside and point out how much of a disservice they’re doing themselves by abusing quotes (and ftr I never see the kids, so I can’t be that person.)
Question: Are these kids doing this in handwritten form? I’m guessing so, because if they were writing this with a word processor, they should be using appropriate italics, bold, etc. I’m wondering if kids used to writing with computers are having problems when they switch to handwriting, where italics aren’t possible?
---
### Author:  [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/16 "2004-12-05T06:00:35Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#):
>
> Question: Are these kids doing this in handwritten form? I’m guessing so, because if they were writing this with a word processor, they should be using appropriate italics, bold, etc. I’m wondering if kids used to writing with computers are having problems when they switch to handwriting, where italics aren’t possible?
95% of them are handwriting, but even the kids who type _still_ do this rather than use italics…
---
### Author:  [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/17 "2004-12-05T06:45:15Z")
> [@elfkin477](#):
>
> 95% of them are handwriting, but even the kids who type _still_ do this rather than use italics…
Hmm…interesting. I’d be curious to know where they are picking this up? In electronic communication, either the proper formatting, or understood conventions representing the proper formatting (“I really enjoy writing, because I’m really _good_ at it. My teachers say I’m really _creative,_ and I like to use my imagination. Someday I’d like to be a writer and really _make something of myself_ like Stephen King has.”) are used. [If you are unfamiliar with _this_ convention, it means bolding. Bolding is used instead of italics in plain text communications such as Usenet.] At least on Usenet and message boards, I’m not familiar with seeing “” to mean italics or bold. Could this be coming from real time chat?
---
### Author:  [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/18 "2004-12-05T06:48:46Z")
> [@elfkin477](#):
>
> It’s a weird trend I’ve seen from third graders all the way up to 12th graders.
I hate to be the one to tell you this, but it isn’t just the kids. You’ll want to avoid going to the grocery store down the street from my apartment, which sells _Only The “Freshest” Meat and Poultry_! :eek:
---
### Author:  [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/19 "2004-12-05T06:50:45Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#):
>
> Little doubt that geeks are exerting an influence on the written form of the language today.
Bwa-ha-ha-ha-haaa…
_snicker_
---
### Author:  [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)
#### Post date: [December 5, 2004, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131/20 "2004-12-05T06:52:37Z")
> [@Roland Orzabal](#):
>
> I hate to be the one to tell you this, but it isn’t just the kids. You’ll want to avoid going to the grocery store down the street from my apartment, which sells _Only The “Freshest” Meat and Poultry_! :eek:
I always liked the handmade sign down the street,
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punctuation-question-quotes-or-quotes/278131.md?page=2)