# Punish like it's 1699: Public shaming is back **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896 "2012-11-13T16:20:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/1 "2012-11-13T16:20:22Z")
When you think of being publicly humiliated for committing a crime in the United States, your thoughts might go to images of [Puritans in stocks](http://en.allexperts.com/q/U-S-History-672/2009/6/Puritan-Punishment.htm) or [Nathaniel Hawthorne novels](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scarlet_Letter). However, increasingly, judges are sentencing people convicted of minor crimes to punishments which include public shaming.[ul] [li]In Cleveland a woman is [forced to wear a sign](http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/269178/3/Sidewalk-driver-wears-sign-Tuesday-Wednesday) that says “Only an idiot would drive around a school bus” at the corner where she swerved around a stopped school bus.[/li][li]Judge Peter Miller of Putnam County, Florida - who just retired this year - has sentenced [over 2,000 first-time](http://www.farahandfarah.com/blog/law-information/judge-orders-shoplifters-to-wear-sign-in-front-of-store/) offenders to wear signs relevant to their crimes. For example, first-time shoplifters are ordered to stand outside the store they stole from with a sign that reads “I stole from this store.”[/li][li]Ohio Municipal Court Judge [Michael A. Cicconetti](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cicconetti) sentenced two teenagers who scrawled 666 on a nativity figure of Jesus to lead a donkey through the streets with a sign saying “Sorry for the jackass offense,” a man who shouted “pigs” at police officers to stand on a street corner with a pig and a sign that said “This is not a police officer,” and an 18 year old male who stole pornography from an adult book store was ordered to sit outside the store wearing a blindfold and holding a sign that read “See no evil.”[/li][/ul]Meanwhile, beleaguered parents have turned to public shaming as a disciplinary tool.[ul] [li]A 12-year old Colorado boy who took $100 from the wallet of his cousin was forced by his father to [stand on a corner in downtown Denver](http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_20270115/curbside-confessional) with a bright yellow sign announcing: “I am a thief. I took money from a family member.”[/li][li]A 13-year-old Memphis girl [learned quite a lesson](http://www.abc24.com/mostpopular/story/Memphis-Teen-Learns-Hard-Lesson/_pqHgJ_PG06U0Mzcbp1LiQ.cspx), “Don’t steal from your family.” Her mom made sure plenty of people saw what she did, forcing her to carry a sign that said that at a busy intersection in town.[/li][li]A father in Illinois [punished his daughter](http://www.abc2news.com/dpp/news/national/dad-makes-girl-wear-sign-as-punishment) by forcing the 8-year old to wear a sign that read “I like to steal from others and lie about it”. [/li][li]A mother grew tired of her 14-year old daughter’s poor grades, chronic lateness to class and her talking back to her teachers, so she made her [stand at a busy Oklahoma City intersection](http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_20270115/curbside-confessional) with a cardboard sign that read “I don’t do my homework and I act up in school, so my parents are preparing me for my future. Will work for food.”[/li][/ul]To me these are two separate issues since legal ramifications for convicted adults seems quite different than discipline techniques against children or teenagers by their parents or guardians, in terms of both who is doing the punishing (and why) and who is being punished. In the case of throwback judges, is this punishment a good idea? Some people seem to think that it works in rehabilitating, that the sting of shame often scares them straight, far more effective than a fine and a small time in jail. Or is this a horrific harkening to a time of cultural insensitivity whose barbarity should remain a footnote in our history along with witch burning? Conversely, do kids learn a lesson when they are shamed in front of their friends, family and community? Or is such a punishment a blow to the fragile psyches of youth, something which can actually cause long-term damage to the child rather than a lesson learned? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/2 "2012-11-13T16:27:28Z")
I wonder if the 8th Amendment applies here. I mean, does a punishment have to be both cruel \*and \*unusual to apply? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/3 "2012-11-13T16:48:58Z")
The offender has the option of going along with the unusual punishment, right? ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/4 "2012-11-13T16:53:06Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > a man who shouted “pigs” at police officers to stand on a street corner with a pig and a sign that said “This is not a police officer,” I can see the other ones, but is this even a crime? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/5 "2012-11-13T17:02:47Z")
I blame the culture-war right for this kind of thing. The thought of a touchy-feely future, where ethics replace morals and the only authority is reasonable, over-educated, and often female, has them clinging to their vengeful God and determined to bring His whup-ass on general principle. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/6 "2012-11-13T17:03:56Z")
I actually like the idea in general. Some of the specific examples, though, bother me—mainly, the ones that require the miscreants to say “ **I am…** ” rather than “ **I did…**.” For example: > [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > A 12-year old Colorado boy who took $100 from the wallet of his cousin was forced by his father to [stand on a corner in downtown Denver](http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_20270115/curbside-confessional) with a bright yellow sign announcing: "I am a thief. Do we really want to be sending this kid the message that his fundamental identity is that of Thief? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/7 "2012-11-13T17:07:58Z")
The people doing this don’t care what damage it causes the individual. They don’t believe you can care for individual and still care for society - society has to come first, last and always. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/8 "2012-11-13T17:22:26Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > The people doing this don’t care what damage it causes the individual. There is evidence that it damages the individual? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/9 "2012-11-13T17:27:58Z")
It seems kind borderline abusive on the part of the parents, and from judges it’s just petty. I don’t see these punishments serving justice at all. They just satisfy the public’s desire to see criminals humiliated. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/10 "2012-11-13T17:32:28Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > There is evidence that it damages the individual? The people doing this don’t even care that it _might_ damage the individual. Any evidence one might produce would be disregarded out of hand by the one giving the punishment, and by you, too, I imagine. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/11 "2012-11-13T17:33:48Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > The people doing this don’t even care that it _might_ damage the individual. Any evidence one might produce would be disregarded out of hand by the one giving the punishment, and by you, too, I imagine. Have I expressed an opinion one way or another? Or have I just asked you to substantiate yours? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/12 "2012-11-13T17:43:42Z")
I can’t even speculate on whether these punishments are effective, or if they cause real harm to the convicted. However, for minor crimes, I’m willing to entertain the possibility that such punishments are a much better use of resources than locking someone up for a few days (or whatever). If it turns out these shaming punishments are effective, I’d love to see them applied to the jerkface speeders, stop sign runners, drive on the freeway shoulder 'cuz traffic sucks types, and other jackhole drivers that exist around here. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/13 "2012-11-13T17:43:43Z")
(@ **Beware of Doug** et al) Yes, please, substantiate your claims, without _ad hominem_s if possible. Granted that specific implememtations may be cruel, barbaric, or counterproductive, what’s wrong with public shaming-type punishments _in principle_? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/14 "2012-11-13T18:04:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If it turns out these shaming punishments are effective, I’d love to see them applied to the jerkface speeders, stop sign runners, drive on the freeway shoulder 'cuz traffic sucks types, and other jackhole drivers that exist around here. Here’s guessing that won’t happen because municipalities won’t want to give up the money they get from traffic tickets. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/15 "2012-11-13T18:11:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Here’s guessing that won’t happen because municipalities won’t want to give up the money they get from traffic tickets. Nay nay! Convicted of a speeding ticket? $100 fine. $75 court cost. $27 clerk fee. PLUS… a $45 sign approval fee (offender must provide own construction paper and paint) and a $15 official permit to stand on the sidewalk. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/16 "2012-11-13T18:34:52Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > (@ **Beware of Doug** et al) Yes, please, substantiate your claims, without _ad hominem_s if possible. > > Granted that specific implememtations may be cruel, barbaric, or counterproductive, what’s wrong with public shaming-type punishments _in principle_? IANA criminologist, so principle is all I can argue. I think it’s excessive and leaves a door open for cruelty. For one thing, we have a public shaming mechanism in place called the media and internet. Publicity almost always follows these cases, even getting a name and picture on the local news site. If a person is a first offender who’s committed a petty crime - and I’m assuming that the “shamees” here, especially the juveniles, mostly are - that exposure, and the fact of having a rapsheet, is often enough when combined with the usual punishments. More importantly, it _ought_ to be enough. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/17 "2012-11-13T18:47:41Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Publicity almost always follows these cases, even getting a name and picture on the local news site. Can you tell me the last time a person paid a fine for swerving around a school bus? I can’t. I can tell you the time a woman had to hold up a sign where she did it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/18 "2012-11-13T18:56:48Z")
Surely we can all agree that swerving onto a sidewalk to get past a stopped school bus should be punished in some way, no? And just as surely, any form of punishment can potentially be harmful to the punished. So if one is going to object to the shaming on that ground, one should be prepared to argue both that the harm is (not just might be) more severe than that from alternatives, and that the harm is an undue amount. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/19 "2012-11-13T19:25:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Surely we can all agree that swerving onto a sidewalk to get past a stopped school bus should be punished in some way, no? Of course. Traffic tickets, criminal charges- there are plenty of options that actually make sense even though they might not give the public that reality-show thrill. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896/20 "2012-11-13T20:07:39Z")
Why did you cut off the important stuff he said and just left the qualifier that everyone can agree on? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punish-like-its-1699-public-shaming-is-back/640896.md?page=2)