# Punishment for a crime that is prevented **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 22, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punishment-for-a-crime-that-is-prevented/558049 "2010-10-22T22:30:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punishment-for-a-crime-that-is-prevented/558049/1 "2010-10-22T22:30:11Z")
This thread is is inspired by an exchange about the movie Minority Report in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13056271#post13056271). Lemur 88 argues that the only point to punishing crime is to protect the rest of us. > [@](#): > > …In today’s penal system, we don’t give people who commit this sort of crime (voluntary manslaughter) life imprisonment. So why do we do it in the future? When he hasn’t actually killed anyone, because we’ve prevented it, and if he plans on killing his wife again, we’ll prevent it again. > > Not that he shouldn’t get therapy and an ankle bracelet or something. The purpose of the consequences should be to keep the rest of us safe from murderous criminals. If we aren’t in any danger from this guy, then why do we need to punish him?.. Let’s put aside the issue in the movie that the designer of the system learned to game it and get away with a crime. Let’s assume the system works exactly as designed. I think we also need to set aside what a court would say about evidence in cases like this. Let’s pretend the rules of evidence are changed so whatever system that’s used to predict the crimes is also accepted as evident of intent to commit the crime. If we can peer into the future on into peoples’ minds so clearly that we can intervene and prevent the crime, should the person who is about to commit that crime be punished? I think yes, that an attempt to commit a crime is in itself a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Yarster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/7c8e57/32.png) [@Yarster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yarster)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punishment-for-a-crime-that-is-prevented/558049/2 "2010-10-23T04:59:07Z")
Like so many other things in life, the answer here is “it depends”. Would this count with crimes of passion? It’s one thing if I have decided I hate my wife and want her dead no matter what. It’s another thing if I am just mad at her and want a divorces, but then find out she burned through our entire savings account and I catch her in bed with my best friend after she murdered all the family pets and beat the children into bloody pulps. You also have crimes of opportunity as well, like prostitution, where the John wants to have sex and will buy it if it available, but that doesn’t mean he will rape someone if it isn’t. Likewise, maybe he wouldn’t steal that car if you hadn’t otherwise left it running with the keys in it while you went inside for five minutes to get something at the store. I’d be less inclined to punish some of these crimes simply because the thought entered their heads. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punishment-for-a-crime-that-is-prevented/558049/3 "2010-10-23T05:04:16Z")
An attempt is more than an idea. It usually requires some overt act in furtherence of the crime before criminal liability would attach. If you can prevent the crime, you oughta be able to prevent an attempt as well, making punishment unnecessary and unwarranted. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punishment-for-a-crime-that-is-prevented/558049/4 "2010-10-23T06:28:00Z")
I’d say no. If you’re able to prevent crimes from occurring before they happen then there’s no need to punish criminals for the deterent effect. Rehabilitation and segregation aren’t going to be major issues either. And it seems immoral to me to seek retribution for something that never actually occurred. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punishment-for-a-crime-that-is-prevented/558049/5 "2010-10-23T16:38:58Z")
This is essentially a more entertaining way to have a formal debate about theories of justice. If we’re being strictly utilitarian about criminal justice, since all crimes are prevented by precognition, there’s no need to attach additional punishment. If we’re concerned about a future offender getting his prospective just deserts, in theory, at least, he should be punished for his intention to commit the crime just as he would be punished for actually committing it, because in terms of his personal depravity there’s no change effected by preventing it. I’d suggest that this points out a sort of ethical flaw in this kind of approach, but it’s a pretty popular one. Personally I would fall in the first camp - no punishment necessary, because we’ve already done exactly what is needed to keep anyone from getting hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punishment-for-a-crime-that-is-prevented/558049/6 "2010-10-23T17:30:45Z")
Didn’t the Times Square bomber just get life in prison? His crime was prevented (okay, more like failed due to incompetence, but still). ---
**Author:** ![Campion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punishment-for-a-crime-that-is-prevented/558049/7 "2010-10-23T17:54:34Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > An attempt is more than an idea. It usually requires some overt act in furtherence of the crime before criminal liability would attach. If you can prevent the crime, you oughta be able to prevent an attempt as well, making punishment unnecessary and unwarranted. This. It’s one of the problems I have with “thought crimes.” Under the US system (and, presumably, commonwealth systems as well), we’re mostly allowed to think what we want, and even to say some of it (footnote exception re libel in non-US jurisdictions). The law of attempted crimes requires the suspect to take at least one act in furtherance of the commission of the crime so that it moves beyond thought and into action. I also think we’d run into trouble with the whole notion that some machine could infallibly say what the suspect was thinking and that he would actually have done it, save for the intrepid law enforcement officers. Because the fact that he was caught and prosecuted shows that in fact he did NOT do it. So the machine was wrong, and therefore unreliable, and therefore inadmissible. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punishment-for-a-crime-that-is-prevented/558049/8 "2010-10-24T05:04:07Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Didn’t the Times Square bomber just get life in prison? His crime was prevented (okay, more like failed due to incompetence, but still). I assumed from the OP that we’re talking about a system that prevents all crimes not just a handful. If you’re in a situation where some crimes are not pre-detected, then you’ve reintroduced the possible value of punishment as a deterent factor. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punishment-for-a-crime-that-is-prevented/558049/9 "2010-10-24T05:15:40Z")
“Attempted murder. Really, what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for ‘attempted chemistry’?” ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punishment-for-a-crime-that-is-prevented/558049/10 "2010-10-24T05:16:57Z")
Oh, and to answer the question: don’t we today punish people for crimes not committed? Now granted, they have to attempt the crime and not think about it, but if someone tried to rape me and I got away before he could, he’d still face consequences, assuming the system worked as it is intended to now. Yet, of course, I would not be raped.