# Punitive Coma **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132 "2003-05-28T22:40:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/1 "2003-05-28T22:40:58Z")
In Philip Kerr’s book _A Philosophical Investigation_, criminals are punished with ‘punitive coma’: they are rendered unconscious for a period of years, proportional to their crime, up to and including ‘indefinite coma’, where they are left in that state until death. Essentially, it amounts to the state taking years off a person’s life. There’s a lot to recommend it: the costs to the state of incarceration are ridiculously low, comparatively; there’s no danger for guards or inmates, or the public since the convict can’t escape; the problem of prison as a finishing school for inmates disappears. As a punishment, it’s admirably direct. As a replacement for the death penalty, it really shines. While a sentence of indefinite coma is, effectively, a death sentence, if the convicted is later found to be innocent the coma can be reversed; this removes a lot of the stigma from the death penalty, namely the uncertainty of our justice system in using it accurately. It can’t be judged inhumane (or at least, isn’t in the book) in terms of suffering, since deep space travel will probably involve exactly the same procedure. On the other hand, the convicted is unable to assist in his own defense after a guilty verdict, though arrangements could be made for a yearly ‘waking up’ to consult with an attorney. It also rather gives up on rehabilitation, since the convict has no opportunity to reflect on his actions and perhaps change something in his life, such as learning a legitimate trade. However, given the rehabilitation rates of our current prison system, I’m not certain the last is much of an objection. Ultimately, though, there is something cruel, and possibly inhumane, about taking years from a person’s life. I can’t think specifically why, but it gives me the willies. So what do you think? First, is it doable with current medical technology? Second, is it a moral form of punishment? Third, is it as pragmatic as it appears? ---
**Author:** ![cellardoor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e7dd6/32.png) [@cellardoor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cellardoor)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/2 "2003-05-28T22:50:46Z")
I think it would be most effective only in cases that the death peanalty would be given, not for normal prison sentances. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/3 "2003-05-28T23:02:03Z")
One of the alleged purposes of putting a convicted felon behind bars is to give him time to reflect on his crimes and reform. If he’s unconscious the whole time, he’s going to wake up as basically the same man he was when he was put under. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/4 "2003-05-28T23:03:19Z")
Of course, if I’d read the whole OP and not just jumped in with my two-cents’ worth, I would have seen this: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hansel \* > **It also rather gives up on rehabilitation, since the convict has no opportunity to reflect on his actions and perhaps change something in his life, such as learning a legitimate trade. However, given the rehabilitation rates of our current prison system, I’m not certain the last is much of an objection.** :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/5 "2003-05-28T23:19:55Z")
I’d sure rather get 20 years in a coma than 20 years behind bars! ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/6 "2003-05-28T23:52:54Z")
One point from the book should be made: the government of the time was elected on a platform of “retributive justice”, not rehabilitative. Basically, criminals were to be simply punished for deterrent effect, with no attempts made to alter their character. Punitive coma obviously fits right in with this. So how effective would it be at deterring crime? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/7 "2003-05-29T00:36:06Z")
I am sure **Qadgop** will be along shortly with the definitive medical opinion, but I would be surprised if a medically induced coma could be maintained for a period of years, or that it can be switched on and off at will. Constitutional issues aside, I don’t think it is even possible. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/8 "2003-05-29T00:50:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fear Itself \* > \*\*I am sure **Qadgop** will be along shortly with the definitive medical opinion, but I would be surprised if a medically induced coma could be maintained for a period of years, or that it can be switched on and off at will. Constitutional issues aside, I don’t think it is even possible. \*\* A friend of mine was on life support for several weeks. He eventually recovered fully, although he then had to go through a couple of months regimin of physical rehabilitation. I don’t know whether he could have been kept on life support for years. Also, I think it’s very expensive. All in all, this doesn’t sound like a practical plan, at the moment. Nor do I favor it, even, if it were practical. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/9 "2003-05-29T01:30:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > A friend of mine was on life support for several weeks. He eventually recovered fully, although he then had to go through a couple of months regimin of physical rehabilitation. > > All in all, this doesn’t sound like a practical plan, at the moment. Nor do I favor it, even, if it were practical. Being kept “sedated” would not require life support per se but something akin to TPN feeding would be required. Things like muscle atrophy after long term application would make it kinda rough. Maybe having them sedated and getting them up once a week for an “exercise day” or something might help. I don’t know enough about “long term” care issues to give a good opinion on that. Personally, if it could be done without ill health effects, I would be all for this. I would much rather sleep off a sentence than stare at a wall 24/7. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/10 "2003-05-29T06:14:23Z")
How are these comas induced in the book? How are they reversed? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/11 "2003-05-29T09:43:42Z")
Well, it is certainly an _unusual_ “punishment”. I would also say it was somewhat _cruel_ on the family of the prisoner, who can no longer even talk to or receive letters from their incarcerated loved one, who is effectively dead to them. Which makes it a _cruel and unusual punishment_ in my book. (Of course, being a European I am aware that my understanding of this phrase is likely completely different to that of most Americans) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/12 "2003-05-29T09:53:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > \*\*I’d sure rather get 20 years in a coma than 20 years behind bars! \*\* And if you were innocent and needed to fight your case? ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/13 "2003-05-29T12:09:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*How are these comas induced in the book? How are they reversed? \*\* They don’t give details about the chemicals–you’re rendered unconscious (and kept there) by IV, and put into a morgue-like cabinet where a special bed prevents bedsores. The implication is that it’s a state of heavy sedation that can be reversed by simply turning off the drip. The muscular atrophy and general physical debilitation are considered part of the punishment. Thus, waking up twenty years after the fact means not just missing the last twenty years, but being almost crippled as well, though in a non-permanent way. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/14 "2003-05-29T12:14:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > **I would also say it was somewhat _cruel_ on the family of the prisoner, who can no longer even talk to or receive letters from their incarcerated loved one, who is effectively dead to them.** Well, that’s rather part of the punishment isn’t it? Having many years taken off your life includes missing everything that would be important to you in that time, like your children growing up. It makes it a more effective deterrent. You can’t pretend that a convict’s family doesn’t already suffer, with his being removed from them, unable to support them, and possibly prohibitive circumstances making visits and such difficult. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > \*\*Which makes it a _cruel and unusual punishment_ in my book. (Of course, being a European I am aware that my understanding of this phrase is likely completely different to that of most Americans) \*\* Howso different? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/15 "2003-05-29T12:40:25Z")
It’s a thoroughly disgraceful and reprehensible idea … and the worrying thing is, compared to the existing system, it’s actually got points to recommend it. At least your comatose criminal doesn’t wake up any _worse_ than before … and the cost might even compare favourably with the expense of keeping someone in the squalid crime academies which prisons seem to be today. In a society which has completely given up on the idea of criminal rehabilitation, this would seem to be a viable proposition. I sincerely hope that we are _not_ that society. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/16 "2003-05-29T12:43:53Z")
> [@](#): > > You can’t pretend that a convict’s family doesn’t already suffer Indeed **hansel** , but this would appear to take it to a whole new level. In one case, the family knows that they’re _there_ and are still part of their everyday life via letters, phone calls and visits (however infrequent). If children are involved, they still have a chance to know their parent, who can help them to understand the situation and hopefully impress upon them how “daddy/mommy did a bad thing”. A comatose patient, however, simply may as well be dead. Indeed, even more problems might arise from the family almost “forgetting” about them due to the absence of reminders and suddenly having to deal with a real, living human being who is only a distant memory. As for children, taking them to see a shrivelled human vegetable _who is like that because the state decreed it_ will perhaps instill conflicting views about who the “baddies” are. > [@](#): > > Howso different? That was merely an expression of my bemusement regarding what is considered acceptable in the American penal system. The very _idea_ of _eg._ reintroducing capital punishment is simply never even raised in informed political argument over here. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/17 "2003-05-29T13:07:44Z")
Keeping a person unconscious is very high-tech, and would be far more expensive than keeping them conscious but locked-up. they’d need very close monitoring, lots of expensive medications and treatments, and the mortality rate would be very high, not to mention the morbidity. Rehab after being “awakened” would be extensive and expensive too. So, technologically, we’re just not there yet. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/18 "2003-05-29T13:54:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SentientMeat \* > \*\*That was merely an expression of my bemusement regarding what is considered acceptable in the American penal system. The very _idea_ of _eg._ reintroducing capital punishment is simply never even raised in informed political argument over here. \*\* You might be interested to know, then, that the book is set in a somewhat dystopian near-future Britain. ---
**Author:** ![Trjckster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Trjckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trjckster)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/19 "2003-05-29T15:08:23Z")
Interesting idea, but I don’t think it would ever be possible to get the public to accept sleeping as a form of punishment. Even if on awaking they find the world has left them behind their victims will feel they can’t have changed, all it would take to ruin public confidence would be a few notable re-affenders. It you could influence their behavior while they sleep, a la demolition man, it might be more acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132/20 "2003-05-29T15:22:28Z")
This wouldn’t work. Because high dependency and ICU beds are SO CHEAP. What with the round the clock nursing, cost of parenteral nutrition, physiotherapy, antibiotics, ventilators etc. And yes, it would all be necessary. Also, PEOPLE DIE IN COMAS. From oedema, pneumonia, infected bedsores, kidney infections, bowel obstructions, septicaemia and meningitis. Whatever happens, the person would probably wake up to find they have serious mental dysfunction and physical problems, possibly including being unable to walk, swallow, talk or care of themselves. It’s not cheap, it’s not humane, it’s probably cruel and unusual, and it’s not workable. On preview, what QTM said. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punitive-coma/178132.md?page=2)