# Punk rockers, "gangsters," and goths.....OH MY! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 27, 2003, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817 "2003-02-27T04:39:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/21 "2003-02-27T06:50:02Z")
What can I say, I like architecture. ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/22 "2003-02-27T07:11:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 2trew \* > \*\*No, I don’t have any DK on 8-track. I hear rumours that you can get some Joy Division and early Bauhaus in that format, though. > > Yeesh, I refuse to use smileys, but there are completists out there, so I AM KIDDING! I KNOW OF NO SUCH THING! \*\* It seems you’re right, but if you _do_ wanna see some punk/new wave 8-tracks, try [here](http://www.collectorscum.com/8tracks/). Now to address the OP: > [@](#): > > First off, let me state that I AM NOT judging anybody, saying that they have no right to express themselves in any manner they feel to be appropriate, or questioning the validity of their beliefs. Just because you say that you’re not judging people doesn’t mean that you’re not. You are. Of course, that’s OK, but this was a pretty silly way to start off. You should **rejoice** in your judgment of others and their right to look and act how they want - it’s one of the true pleasures of life. > [@](#): > > I am just curious as to how certain people’s entire existances seem to revolve around their “images.” Why would listening to a certain type of music effect one’s entire perception of reality? It’s simple. For 90% or 95% of the population (to pull a figure out of thin air), music serves a number of purposes - it’s there in the background while they work; it fills the gaps between ads on their favourite radio station; it gives them something to remember their youth by. For the rest of the population, music is more than this. It is the ENTIRETY of their lives, and everything else is just a distraction. For various reasons, this happens more with certain genres of music (eg heavy metal, punk, gothic, hip hop) than with others (eg mainstream pop, classic rock), but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen for every style of music. Of course, someone who bases their whole life on classic rock probably dresses much like your average casual dresser, so it’s less noticable than a goth in full regalia. This also happens most often in youth, again for some obvious reasons, like the fact that younger people have less options for enjoyment. Somtimes it extends throughout a person’s life, and they can start to look pretty sad, whether they’re dedicated to one artist/genre, or try to maximise their enoyment by grabbing that 10% of great music from everywhere, whether jazz, punk, heavy metal, rock, classical, country, etc (such as myself, if you’re interested). The ‘uniform’ usually only lasts for younger music fans, just because most people get lazy about their dress after a certain age. > [@](#): > > Example 1: Young upper-middle class teenager begins listening to hip-hop. Teenager then feels as though they must study said genre of music to emulate “heroes.” Said teenager has been raised to speak proper English, but abondons native language in an effort to be “down.” This person has never been anywhere near a ghetto, nor come into contact with anyone who speaks “Ebonics,” other than his friends who also “study” Ebonics. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me - if you became passionately interested in chess at a young age, there’s a fair chance you would spent hours studying the language of the game, the life stories of the players, and perhaps even want to learn how to speak Russian, so you can read the memoirs of some of the greats in their original language. If these teenagers act like meatheads, chances are they’re just acting like lots of teenagers do (if you’re reading this and you’re a teenager, I’m not talking about you 😉 ), and in the vast majority of cases, they’ll outgrow it. > [@](#): > > Example 2: Teenager decides that since she listens to the Cure, Smiths…etc, she must now be a witch, “Satanist,” or vampire. SPOOKY! I think it’s disgusting that kids in genres other than heavy metal are thinking they’re Satanists - have they no respect for tradition?!?! > [@](#): > > Also, why aren’t mummys and lycanthropes considered fashionable? They are round my place 😃 ---
**Author:** ![phyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@phyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phyre)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/23 "2003-02-27T09:16:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lilly Putt \* > \*\*2trew, you are DA BOMB! \*\* _Somebody set up us the bomb, all your base are belong to us!!!_ 🙂 I’m a geek, so sue me. Back to the topic… I am a psuedo goth, metal head, alternative 22 year old male. I have been known to wear black nail polish (almost got fired cos I once went to work without taking it off). My wardrobe consists mainly of dark/black clothes. I go to gothic/metal/punk clubs. I hate rave and hip-hop. I enjoy my music, speak happily of the charms of our local rock/hard rock bands… compare them to what i know of the “old school” guys… and can get sit for hours listening to “old timers” (25 yrs old + :D) speak about the good old days when the clubs were harder, the music louder, etc, etc, etc. My girlfriends sister listens to hip-hop. This same little girl that used to come top 10% just failed a year. She is sleeping around at the age of 15, smokes dope, and does all other sorts of drugs. Now, this isn’t actually Hip-hop’s fault. its this incredible urge to fit in, which all of us experienced at one stage, that is to blame. Where the style of music is to blame, is it’s leaders. The Hip-hop leaders encourage drug (ab)use, sexual abuse, etc etc etc. Metal encourages satanism (apparently). But why anyone would want to walk around with their pants at their ankles, and their boxers around their arm-pits is beyond me… I will not make fun of them, if they allow me to wear my clothes my way, in peace. Yeah, if that didn’t make sense, its cos I was up all night with the live human sacrifce to the metal gods. May Metallicawatch over you 😃 Blessed be 😃 kawasaki and suzuki ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/24 "2003-02-27T11:02:08Z")
I’m 28. When I was younger, I was almost exclusively into Metal (or as much metal as you can get in Montana in the 80’s). Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth. My later teen years and early 20’s got me into Goth music… type o negative, bauhaus, switchblade Symphony. As I’ve gotten older, I have a certain respect and liking for some rap… DMX, Bone thugs and Harmony, Ludacris. Needless to say, my clothing is interesting. However, when I was younger I was into Metal T-shirts and ripped up jeans, and then I was into wearing all black and lots of silver jewlery. I was trying to fit in with the crowd that understood and liked the music I liked. Wearing the clothes is part of that. As we grow, we tend to seperate based on music, and then we get older and re-merge into the collective. I’m sure it will continue to happen. However, my daughter may be in for a surprise if she’s hoping to shock me. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/25 "2003-02-27T11:10:11Z")
Explain, please, how you are not judging anybody when you put the particular words you did in quotes. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/26 "2003-02-27T12:01:45Z")
I believe he’s saying that being a “gangster” is not actually possible for many of the so called “gangsters” that he sees driving around in the cars their parents bought them. Of course, I could be “wrong”. That “does” happen. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/27 "2003-02-27T13:18:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lilly Putt \* > \*\*The other day, my little sister (freshly 13) decided she was a punk rocker, after purchasing a Good Charlotte CD. \*\* I had to reply because this made me remember when I was a Transcendentalist at about 13 (a far stretch from punk on the face of it, I grant you). My English class had just studied Emerson and Thoreau, and when I read some brief snatches of their works I remember thinking “THATS what I believe.” Frankly, at 13 I hadn’t lived life enough to know what the hell I did believe or didn’t believe. I did know, though, that I was uncomfortable with moral and ethical gray areas, and I wanted to know what was “right.” Part of discovering myself was trying on suits of thought to see how they felt. I needed a label, some way to describe to the world and to myself who I was. I’m wondering if there isn’t a touch of this being described in this thread. Incidentally, my Trancendentalist phase was short lived. At later times I was also a pantheist, an existentalist, a stoic, a practical hedonist . . . and so on. Can you be a Goth at 46?😃 ---
**Author:** ![Harli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c0e974/32.png) [@Harli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harli)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/28 "2003-02-27T14:09:54Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by mouthbreather_ > **Bubble bubble toil and trouble, Beyotch.** AHAHAHA!!! Brilliant, absolutely brilliant! Can I use this? Somewhere, anywhere, ever?? teeheeheehee ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/29 "2003-02-27T14:21:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lilly Putt \* > The other day, my little sister (freshly 13) decided she was a punk rocker, after purchasing a Good Charlotte CD. She had never heard my band before, due to _language_ and what may be considered _potty humor._ \*\* Are you saying you’re **in** Good Charlotte? Or am I misreading? Because I’ve met some of those folks. I was one of the late 70s/early 80s punks in LA (with a heavy dose of LA Metal, I admit). I still like punk but I’ve moved on. One of the most insightful pieces of music writing I’ve ever seen said that the inherent problem with punk is that one couldn’t play it for long. If a musician is bad then they tend not to last and if a musician is good then the limitations of punk can’t keep you interested for more than a few years. That stunned me. Sure, the kids try on different personas. Let them. Trying other things is part of growing up. I admit I find some kid in an upper middle-class suburb talking about cholos or ‘da hood’ but they’ll grow out of it and find something that’s particularly **them**. Why get worked up about it? And this… > [@](#): > > From 2trew… > > I just worry that we’ve bumped the stakes too much. > > Angry Daughter: “Mom, I’m getting a tattoo and you can’t stop me!” > > Mom: “Oh, great, I need a touchup on mine and it’s about time I gauged up my nipple rings anyway. I’ll make us an appointment for Saturday, we can go for coffee and desert after.” > > I live in fear of how my daughter will try to shock me. As Calvin said, man…classical music. Played real quietly. And button down shirts. White ones. ---
**Author:** ![scablet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@scablet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scablet)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/30 "2003-02-27T14:42:01Z")
The “goths” you describe would seem to be mostly teenagers - a group who is constantly trying to fit in, be it with the black sheep or the white sheep. Teenygoths grate my nerves, too, but most (MOST) of them _grow the fuck out of it_. They hit eighteen or so and either shed their ubergoth image for something more “normal,” or wake up one morning and decide they’re a rivethead now. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/31 "2003-02-27T15:39:37Z")
The answer to the OP is really pretty simple. The Adolescent and Post adolescent stages of life are all about self definition. Who am I? What kind of person am I? An image, allegiance with certain groups, music, all those things add structure to the definition of self. People dress how they do because that’s how they want to structure their understanding of self. It’s a way of taking the brainwork out of your day (sort of). Personal opinion: People who dress in the more extreme ways (ie: living dead makeup, full dickies outfit, sagging, that idiot “rocker” on American Idol) Those people are using image to intensify or add power to their outward appearance. These are people who are going to define themselves for you before you get the chance to define them. It could be a form of “taking charge of one’s life” It could also be a way of arming oneself against invaders (like they don’t want people too close, and if people are, they have to be close on MY terms) Either way, it’s a form of rigidity. The need to have certain things settled and without question. ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/32 "2003-02-27T16:00:14Z")
What I hate are the self-appointed “insiders” who feel qualified to judge whether your style is “genuine” or not. That oh-so-superior “I’m the real deal and you’re not” attitude is incredibly annoying and hurtful. I remember the time I got a new pocket protector and belt holster for my whiz-bang calculator, and put fresh tape on my glasses. I was really stylin’. Then the cool engineers called me a “poseur” and I was heartbroken. I cried for hours. ---
**Author:** ![broccoli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@broccoli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/broccoli)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/33 "2003-02-27T19:12:55Z")
For the love of all that is not Holy, can we change the term punk/goth into two separate identities? There’s quite a division there. Punk: vivid colors, plaids, shaved heads/funny hair Goth: Black, black plaid, black long hair Punk: loud fast angry music Goth: depressing suicide music I could go on… There is no such thing as a punk/goth or a goth-punk. …And i’ve seen every kind of Goth you can imagine. I lived in Tampa for quite some time, which is the Goth capitol of earth. ::shudders at the memory of the ‘Senator’:: ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/34 "2003-02-27T20:01:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by broccoli! \* > \*\*For the love of all that is not Holy, can we change the term punk/goth into two separate identities? \*\* I talked to the guys, and, well, sorry. We can’t. You cybergothpunkheads will just have to learn to live with being pigeonholed together.😃 ---
**Author:** ![B.Pants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@B.Pants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Pants)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/35 "2003-02-27T20:27:19Z")
> [@](#): > > There is no such thing as a punk/goth or a goth-punk Oh? You’ve met everyone in the world, **Broccoli!**? 😉 As much as I hate to label, I know several people who would fall mostly under this description. Of course, they’re all so damn punk they’d never admit it! Which, of course, means they’re all true punks. Kid-tested, Biafra-approved! Right?! Oh, **LifeOnWry** , the image of Joyce DeWitt at a Skinny Puppy concert is branded into my brain, thanks to you! ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/36 "2003-02-27T21:34:13Z")
**Broccoli** - So what do you call the genre that features dyed black mohawks, lots of leather and spikes, heavy black eyeliner, and very fast, hard, angry, “dark” music? No bright colors, lots of black = goth Funny hair, hard n’ fast music = punk ---
**Author:** ![scablet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@scablet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scablet)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/37 "2003-02-27T21:40:05Z")
Goth and punk developed out of each other in terms of both music and style, so the distinction isn’t completely unfair - though most people who would use the two interchangeably wouldn’t know that anyways. “Goth-punks” exist; they’re called death rockers. 😃 Furthermore, I’d like to think that nothing my future kids could conjure wouldn’t be able to shock their pierced-to-high-heaven mummy and daddy, but I have a feeling that when the time comes for me to bear spawn there will be a whole new circus of modifications for them to try. Today it’s large guages and surface piercings and branding… twenty-five years down the line, will my kids be asking to have tentacles grafted onto their foreheads? ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/38 "2003-02-27T21:55:37Z")
Actually, from psuedo-personal experience, the reaction takes the form of hyper-normalcy. E.G.: Hippy parents with young-republican children. It makes sense - if you can’t shock Mom’n’pop by being totally outrageous, you do it by being totally “average”. ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/39 "2003-02-27T22:21:12Z")
As for people defining themselves by their music: (Loosely directed at **Lilly** Is there not a bit of chicken-and-egg going on? I’d say that as much as people define themselves by their group, they choose that group based on their “thang”. So they define their image by who they are, not the other way around. It also seems reasonable that if goths/punks/gangstas indeed “define themselves by their group”, so too does everyone else. You see no reason to adopt the G/P/G trappings because it doesn’t fit you - you don’t agree with the ideals, the mentality, the music, or the image, so you don’t do it. Now if you’re objecting to the /degree/ to which someone jumps into a genre, then lets turn the question around: Why don’t _you_ feel strongly enough about something to dive in completely? Why do you feel the need to reserve yourself and hang out in relative normalcy, while perhaps only partially dabbling in these worlds? And what’s it to you that someone else does? And I also think the examples given in the OP are specious and shallow: Gangsta 1 may actually hear something in the sound and the lyrics that stirs him, pulls him away from the white-suburbanite world that people insist is the pie-in-the-skie of American life. GothGirl 2 automatically thinking she’s a witch sounds like a bad stereotype from an even worse SNL skit. ---
**Author:** ![broccoli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@broccoli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/broccoli)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/40 "2003-02-27T23:29:39Z")
Ahhhh ::smacks self in forehead:: now I remember why I don’t usually cruise the pit. leather, black mohawks, angry music = death rock, death metal, thrash, or industrial (if you have enough electronic crap to power a small country) Depending on how you play the music. …and Goth and Punk did definately NOT spawn from each other. Punk based it’s roots in oppression of the lower class and a hatred for all things Zepplin-ish. Goth started… well Hell I dunno, probably in a vain attemt to start a gay glee club that failed miserably. For the record, _Homosexuality_ is fine by me, but the whole _goth_ thing makes me ill. Quit your miserable whining you maggots. OK, I gotta get my ass out of the pit now. If any of you care to continue this conversation with me my email is in my profile. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817.md?page=3)