# Punk rockers, "gangsters," and goths.....OH MY! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 27, 2003, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817 "2003-02-27T04:39:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![scablet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@scablet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scablet)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/41 "2003-02-28T00:07:02Z")
: peers into can of worms labeled “Goth/Punk origins” : Uhh… no, NOT goin’ there. :dubious: But I must say, if you don’t know how the goth thing started, why be so hasty to claim that the two are “definately” mutually exclusive in origin? No use debating the minutae of subcultures here though, it gets boring. Smiley of Facetiousness indicated I was kidding about death rockers. ---
**Author:** ![mouthbreather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a698b9/32.png) [@mouthbreather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mouthbreather)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/42 "2003-02-28T00:23:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Harli \* > \*\*AHAHAHA!!! Brilliant, absolutely brilliant! Can I use this? Somewhere, anywhere, ever?? teeheeheehee \*\* I’m really at a loss as to where you could use that _anywhere_ except for in this thread – but, knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![Lilly\_Putt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lilly\_Putt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilly_Putt)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/43 "2003-02-28T02:03:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jonathan Chance \* > \*\*Are you saying you’re **in** Good Charlotte? Or am I misreading? Because I’ve met some of those folks. \*\* No, I am NOT in Good Charlotte, I probably should have phrased that differently. I am so old, and out of touch with thee youngsters of today. I don’t remember exactly how it was being a teenager, and I was too busy drinking beer at the time to notice or care. I also, by my own admission (and choice) lead a very sheltered life. I go to work, come home, read , play Nofriendo…etc. If I see anyone, besides at work, it is when my friends come over here. I have had the same friends for 15 years, and already know their opinions on the matter. For this reason I am seeking insight into these matters. Different people lead different lives, and have different experiences. I`m just trying to put it all into perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/44 "2003-02-28T10:36:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tanaqui \* > \*\*First of all–when you are around people who dress a certain way, it is natural that you start dressing more like they do. This applies to everyone, not just punks or goths or “gangsters.” It’s just life. > > Personally, I dress in some clothes that are influenced by the punk/goth scene–this is not because I want to be like everyone else but because I want to have my own identity, and part of it is that I just plain old like how goth and punk clothes look. If I _don’t_ wear them because people like you complain I’m just trying to fit into a rebellious stereotype, then what am I doing? I’m… _gasp_ conforming. To _your_ stereotypes. It’s like you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t, isn’t it? But hey–it’s not like your complaint is breath-takingly original–I’ve heard it before a million times, no doubt I’ll hear it again. Think what you like–if I absolutely have to conform to a subculture, I’ll take the one with better clothes, thanks. \*\* It’s also possible to appreciate a particular genre of music **without** changing one’s appearance/lifestyle accordingly. Had an unpleasant encounter in college with a black guy who flat out refused to talk to me because I liked Beethoven. “Ew, opera.” “No, Beethoven only wrote one opera. He’s best known for his symphonies.” “Ew, opera.” Another encounter with someone who wasn’t trying to pick a fight, but still didn’t “get it.” “I don’t understand your collection here. You’ve got Public Enemy and N.W.A. over here; Beethoven and Mahler and Wagner (mispronounced) over here. What are you trying to be?” “Well, I’m not trying to **be** anything. I just like that music.” “Yeah, but how can you like rap **and** opera.” “Because they’re the two extremes.” “Oh, you’re trying to be extreme.” “[sigh]No…What I mean is, they’re both powerful kinds of music. They express strong emotions.” “Beethoven? Strong emotions? Look, I just don’t see how someone who likes opera can be into rap.” “Fact is, I was into rap **before** I was into classical, which includes symphonies and concertos as well as opera.” “Oh, so you’re trying to be a social climber.” :smack: I did go to the symphony a few times (students got an incredible bargain rate, yay!), and I played the game there: I wore my thrift-shop formals, sipped white wine and made light conversation during the intermission. But I wasn’t trying to become part of the elite by listening to Wagner, any more than I was hoping to make people think I was from the 'hood by listening to N.W.A. **I simply liked what I liked.** And in the meantime, I wore jeans, cowboy boots and shirts with logos because I was neither an heiress nor a gangsta, but simply a college student. ---
**Author:** ![alibey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@alibey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alibey)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/45 "2003-02-28T11:08:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 2trew \* > \*\*Hmph. Bomb. Everybody’s got the bomb. I wanted to be VX. \*\* Ebola 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/46 "2003-02-28T11:57:46Z")
This thread turned into a clusterfuck pretty fast. FTR I agree with what the OP is trying to say. And what the fuck makes all you think that people stop with elitist music and style snobbery just because they turn 20? Everyone is going on and on about teens when the reality is people of all ages act this way. Even your gramp when he whips out the “Glen Miller Band” records and scoffs at your Led Zepplin heavy-metal. ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/47 "2003-02-28T14:26:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by broccoli! \* > \*\*leather, black mohawks, angry music = death rock, death metal, thrash, or industrial (if you have enough electronic crap to power a small country) Depending on how you play the music. > \*\* (and not excluding **scablet’s** identical explanation) OK - that makes sense. I guess back in my misspent youth the goth scene still had a hard undercurrent, so in /my/ perception it was never exclusively the wimpy, sort of languid over-dramatic stereotype that everyone associates with it. From my experience, goth is the underlying aspect of death-rock/industrial. To make a rather esoteric association: Gibson’s “goth” line are matte-black Les Pauls, SGs and Flying Vs. Matte-black is a tone I would much sooner identify with death-metal or punk than one I’d associate with a “wimpy, sort of languid over-dramatic stereotype”. I’d guess the latter to be enamored of high-gloss black with intricate silver or red overlays. And did the original British Punks wear a lot of bright-colored clothes? I don’t remember a lot of plaid in Ramones posters. That I associate with “SLC Punks”. And the stereotype of a “gay glee club” was one of the things that amused the goths I hung out with. . . The ones who in addition to the Cure and DM listened to Ministry, Christian Death and other similar ‘gay glee club’ poster-bands. . . 😃 My point is the only people who know the intricacies of genres are the people who know something about them. I was once accused of being a hippie for wearing long hair. . . with my long black trenchcoat. . . ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/48 "2003-02-28T14:37:55Z")
Yarg . . . great grammer in that last sentence, no? I’m just suggesting that outsider’s categorizations of a thing are generally not very accurate categorizations. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/49 "2003-02-28T14:52:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scablet \* > \*\*The “goths” you describe would seem to be mostly teenagers - a group who is constantly trying to fit in, be it with the black sheep or the white sheep. Teenygoths grate my nerves, too, but most (MOST) of them _grow the fuck out of it_. They hit eighteen or so and either shed their ubergoth image for something more “normal,” or wake up one morning and decide they’re a rivethead now. 😛 \*\* These will be the ones we call babygoths. They tend to be a little OTT - but at least not boring. At 34, I still only wear black, corporate and all. It is part of who I am, and has been for a lot of years. No big deal. But I am tempted to ask this: What is different, in essence, between these various subcultures and ‘normality’? The so-called normal look is also a uniform of sorts, simply a majority one. For me, I look the way I look because I find it more comfortable, it looks better on me, and allows more expression of who I am. But that is me. ---
**Author:** ![tourbot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@tourbot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tourbot)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/50 "2003-02-28T22:12:03Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Tanaqui \* > \*\* If I don’t wear them because people like you complain I’m just trying to fit into a rebellious stereotype, then what am I doing? I’m… gasp conforming. To your stereotypes._\* Or, you could, I don’t know, do something _original_? Otherwise, when it comes to fashion, you _are_ just a conformist of one kind or another. Or, you could wear clothes so non-descript, so utterly average, that they can’t possibly be taken as conforming to anything. (Ever see the way Jello Biafra dresses?) I guess the point is, saying I dress this way because I like it doesn’t invalidate claims of conformity. Why do you like it? Because you think it makes you look “cool”? I guess the only way to really be a non-conformist through clothes is to dress in nerd costume. (Though even that is losing its lack of street cred.) Then again, this is coming from someone who once wore a DEVO radiation suit to school (though really, there was _never_ a time when that would have been cool enough to be considered conforming to anything, at least not where I went to school), so please take this with the recommended dose of irony/grain of salt. (Nowadays, I listen to Devo, Glenn Miller, Led Zeppelin, occassionally even some Hip-Hop. It’s all good. I dress in whatever’s on top of the clean laundry pile.) Through Bein’ Cool- Mike ---
**Author:** ![Lilly\_Putt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lilly\_Putt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilly_Putt)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/51 "2003-02-28T23:56:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > \*\*It’s also possible to appreciate a particular genre of music **without** changing one’s appearance/lifestyle accordingly. > \*\* Yes! The more I think about it, the more I wonder whether people play dress-up as a way to let everyone know that they are COOL without having to actually BE cool. I say wear whatever you like, but it seems that a lot of people put way too much thought into perfectly calculating an image, therefore unwittingly becoming a STEREOTYPE. There is almost a unifom for every sub culture. How does slipping one on make you unique? Conforming against conformity? The only way to be TRULY dress uniquely is to make your own clothes. If your appearance is your best means of expressing yourself you probably don’t really have too much to say. I myself, am a jeans and t-shirt kind of guy. They’re comfortable, and I have nothing to prove. My waist is 34 inches, and my inseam is 32, so that’s the size pants I buy. My grandma understands every word that comes out of my mouth (that she can hear,) and people actually have to TALK to me to even have any idea about what kinds of things I like. I am happy walking around completely un-noticed, slipping quietly past the radars of the socially inept. I am a social ninja. I am obviously the epitome of cool.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ol\_Gaffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Ol\_Gaffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ol_Gaffer)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/52 "2003-03-01T00:15:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lilly Putt \* > \*\* > > \ > > If your appearance is your best means of expressing yourself you probably don’t really have too much to say. > > \ > > \*\* Amen brother. I think that is the heart of this entire discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/53 "2003-03-01T02:01:07Z")
Amen. I relate a conversation I once heard at a _Big Jesus Trash Can_ gig in DC: Girl 1: How can these guys be hardcore? Girl 2: What do you mean? Girl 1: There hair is so **short**. Girl 2: Duh! Haven’t you heard of _skinheads_? FTR, none of them were skinheads. They just wore their hair short. The more it’s about the appearance the less it’s about the message. And don’t give me that ‘medium is the message’ crap. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/54 "2003-03-01T05:53:11Z")
I think a lot of “them” are just having fun with fashion/fads and/or trying to “fit in”. I also agree with the posters who mentioned “shocking their parents” as possible reasons. Then again with some of “them” they are just trying to stand out. Seems like that would be kind of hard though in this day and age, and considering how many punks, goths and rappers there are out there. ---
**Author:** ![ProjectOmega](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b487fb/32.png) [@ProjectOmega](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProjectOmega)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/55 "2003-03-01T06:37:27Z")
I would just like to insert a mini-rant here about Hot Topic. For those of you that haven’t been in a mall lately, Hot Topic is basically the punk/goth (and these can go together! I see it all the goddamned time) version of the Gap, mixed in with a record store that sells some music and usually posters, band t-shirts and such. Now when I see a gentleman dressed all in black, with spiked hair, chains, a dog-collar, combat boots and maybe a little makeup or nail polish, I used think, “Wow, that’s one brave/weird/kinda scary dude”. I think this is the reaction they WANT. They wear their personalities on their sleeves, which is something I think a lot of people wish they could do. That reaction is long dead now. Why? I happened to wander into this store, Hot Topic, not long ago. I usually despise malls and was just making an emergency trip for some wrapping paper, but the store caught my eye on the way out. How could you NOT notice the cave-like interior with black lights and “HOT TOPIC” written in scary, jagged red letters? So I wandered in, and saw everything I described above. And you know what else I saw? Teenage girls, BROWSING. Yes, BROWSING FOR GOTH/PUNK gear. They were trying on various studded/spiked bracelets and necklaces, comparing and contrasting and checking price tags. Now, correct me if I’m wrong… but isn’t that DEFEATING THE ENTIRE FUCKING PURPOSE? The whole foundation of the “Look at me! I’m different” movement in goth and punk circles is that you refuse to confrom to corporate styles and sensibilities. That’s why it used to be strange to see a guy walking around with a spiked dog collar, because for heaven’s sake! That’s a REAL dog collar! Now you can just go and BROWSE for a defiant image? You can hand-pick from an array of “fuck you, sheep” clothing? You can check in there frequently to get a sense of the latest freaking STYLES? The fucking goth-outfit of the month?! Jesus Christ almighty, these are the same kids that will go home and discuss how “fake” people that shop at the Gap are, or how they’re so sick of fake people that just conform to what society deems “cool”! Ok, I need to cool off before I blow a gasket. I _do_ commend the genius that thought up the concept of Hot Topic, though. Most likely it was just a middle-aged guy that saw how his daughter or son dressed and heard cash registers in his head. Commercializing the self-proclaimed “non-sheep”. Absolutely genius. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/56 "2003-03-01T07:05:58Z")
Amen, brother. You also brought up a point that I meant to raise earlier but forgot: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ProjectOmega \* > \*\*the punk/goth (and these can go together! I see it all the goddamned time) \*\* That’s what kills me. I’ve seen [wheeze]young people[/wheeze] **mix** accessories and garments from the two styles, like spiked hair with a cape, or a shirt with runes on it that is also torn and safety-pinned. They don’t care what the aggregate looks like, as long as the components are “scary”. Gah! ---
**Author:** ![gorillacus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/dfb087/32.png) [@gorillacus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gorillacus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/57 "2003-03-01T07:08:56Z")
old gorillacus sighs. He looks at his old pointy-toe boots. He remembers back in 82 when Alien Sex Fiend told him get fucked. He chooses hair dye to cover up the grey. Damn kids…don’t they know he got beat up by rednecks so they could be ‘goths’ and ‘punks’ and even ‘wiggers’. Kids got no respect. ‘sigh’ ---
**Author:** ![Ol\_Gaffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Ol\_Gaffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ol_Gaffer)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/58 "2003-03-01T07:10:33Z")
You know, there is something just not right with the world when you can buy pre-packaged angst at the mall. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/59 "2003-03-01T07:23:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rilchiam \* > \*\* > That’s what kills me. I’ve seen [wheeze]young people[/wheeze] **mix** accessories and garments from the two styles, like spiked hair with a cape, or a shirt with runes on it that is also torn and safety-pinned. They don’t care what the aggregate looks like, as long as the components are “scary”. Gah! \*\* This is irony, right? I mean, we’re talking about kids who identify so strongly with something that they all have to dress the same way, and here is criticism because they’re mixing styles and therefore not conforming correctly? Did I get whooshed? ---
**Author:** ![ProjectOmega](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b487fb/32.png) [@ProjectOmega](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ProjectOmega)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/60 "2003-03-01T07:38:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LifeOnWry \* > \*\*This is irony, right? I mean, we’re talking about kids who identify so strongly with something that they all have to dress the same way, and here is criticism because they’re mixing styles and therefore not conforming correctly? > \*\* I think the idea is that punk and goth sub-cultures are essentially rather different, but with the advent of mass-market angst, kids go out and buy whatever crap looks scary on the shelf for the sake of buying scary crap, and not in the interest of showing “allegience” to one sub-culture or the other, as is traditional. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817.md?page=4)