# Punk rockers, "gangsters," and goths.....OH MY! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 27, 2003, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817 "2003-02-27T04:39:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/61 "2003-03-01T07:46:40Z")
Don’t ya just hate it when people fail to uphold the traditions of punk? What are they, anarchists or something? ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/62 "2003-03-01T07:55:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ProjectOmega \* > \*\*I think the idea is that punk and goth sub-cultures are essentially rather different, but with the advent of mass-market angst, kids go out and buy whatever crap looks scary on the shelf for the sake of buying scary crap, and not in the interest of showing “allegience” to one sub-culture or the other, as is traditional. \*\* Yes, that is what I meant: people who don’t have the convictions of their courage. So to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Lilly\_Putt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lilly\_Putt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilly_Putt)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/63 "2003-03-01T10:19:53Z")
What exactly is punk anyway? How come people who have been involved in the scene for decades have no fucking idea, but a 13 year-old does? Punk, back when it almost meant something was, (as previously stated,) a rebellion against the popular music of the time (Led Zep especially,) or a way to express yourself musically, without having to play everything perfectly. ANYTHING that didn’t fit into the mainstream was considered to be “punk.” Big Black, The Stooges, and countless others were called “punk” because there was no other nice little lable to attatch to them at the time. Basically anything that just didn’t fit was thrown into the “punk” category. I have noticed that many people who were “punks” back in the good old days were much more musically diverse than the “mainstream,” because not only were they aware of the mainstream, and able to appreciate it, they were also willing to explore and appreciate new things as well. This is no longer the case. It is virtually impossible for most of the kids today to deviate from their “scene,” and any difference breeds contempt. The “underground” is the mainstream. Ask any of the Hot Topic kids if they like \*N-sync or Britney, and they will either look at you like you are an asshole, or talk shit. It doesn’t fit into their box. I have to admit, I do not dislike the Spice Girls, Backstreet Boys, \*n-Sync or Britney, as they are musically innocuous. They are bubblegum. You may be sick of hearing them, but they are what they are, and aren’t pretending to be anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/64 "2003-03-01T10:36:06Z")
This is really starting to confuse me - does it make you a poseur if you dress like all the other people in your subculture, or if you dress unlike anyone in your subculture (but like everyone in some other subculture)? Or are you a loser if you mix your subcultural costumes and don’t have the strength to fully follow through one way of dressing? Henry (Dressed in old jeans, torn Doc Martens and a big daggy sweater, listening to Miles Davis’ contribution to ‘horrible noise’, Rated X) ---
**Author:** ![Lilly\_Putt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lilly\_Putt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilly_Putt)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/65 "2003-03-01T11:35:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HenrySpencer \* > Henry > (Dressed in old jeans, torn Doc Martens and a big daggy sweater, listening to Miles Davis’ contribution to ‘horrible noise’, Rated X) \*\* You seem like you’ve got it right to me.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Junior\_Spaceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Junior\_Spaceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Junior_Spaceman)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/66 "2003-03-01T12:01:34Z")
> [@](#): > > You seem like you’ve got it right to me. Do you mean I’ve got being a posuer right? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/67 "2003-03-01T16:06:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lilly Putt \* > \*\*\ > Punk, back when it almost meant something was, (as previously stated,) a rebellion against the popular music of the time (Led Zep especially,) or a way to express yourself musically, without having to play everything perfectly. ANYTHING that didn’t fit into the mainstream was considered to be “punk.” Big Black, The Stooges, and countless others were called “punk” because there was no other nice little lable to attatch to them at the time. Basically anything that just didn’t fit was thrown into the “punk” category. > > I have noticed that many people who were “punks” back in the good old days were much more musically diverse than the “mainstream,” because not only were they aware of the mainstream, and able to appreciate it, they were also willing to explore and appreciate new things as well. > > \ > I have to admit, I do not dislike the Spice Girls, Backstreet Boys, \*n-Sync or Britney, as they are musically innocuous. They are bubblegum. You may be sick of hearing them, but they are what they are, and aren’t pretending to be anything else. \*\* I have to ask - how old are you? I was 11 when punk really debuted, and I beg to differ with your definition of punk. Not everything that wasn’t “mainstream” was considered punk. The punk movement was anti-establishment, but so was Led Zeppelin, so was Joan Baez, so were the Beatles once upon a time. People who embraced punk then were no different from any other generation of young people, looking for a way to stake their own claim in the world and desperate not to be like their parents. Now, at the ripe old age of 38, I chuckle at anyone who identifies that strongly with any musical style, and I chuckle still more when I see those people, in their efforts not to conform, dress like one another. Here’s a little hint: you really can’t classify people by their choices in clothing or music. Some people will dress to fit a perceived image, but when you start telling them they’re not doing it right (in other words, to YOUR standards) you look like an idiot. And _I_ have to admit that I’ve heard what’s passing for punk these days (daily, incessantly, and at high volume) and I find it about as innocuous as you find Britney. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/68 "2003-03-02T03:51:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LifeOnWry \* > \*\*(\*By “punk” my daughter means Bowling For Soup, OK GO, Avril Levigne and New Found Glory. She has not yet twigged to the fact that her mother used to attend Slits and Skinny Puppy concerts.) \*\* Did anyone happen to see the short lived **That 80’s Show**? The above quote reminded me of this: **Really Hot Punk Girl** : You just can’t stand the fact that I’m punk. **Record Store Guy** : You’re not punk. You’re retro. I was at Ramones concerts while you were sitting at home, sucking your thumb and listening to the Bay City Rollers. **Really Hot Punk Girl** (under breath to self): I _did_ listen to the Bay City Rollers. ---
**Author:** ![ReuvenB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc348/32.png) [@ReuvenB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReuvenB)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/69 "2003-03-02T06:19:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MLC \* > [BAnd did the original British Punks wear a lot of bright-colored clothes? I don’t remember a lot of plaid in Ramones posters. That I associate with “SLC Punks”. \*\* SLC Punk is one of the funniest movies ever! especially the scene with the guy sitting on the mailbox. ---
**Author:** ![Lilly\_Putt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lilly\_Putt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilly_Putt)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/70 "2003-03-02T12:30:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LifeOnWry \* > Now, at the ripe old age of 38, That is WAY past ripe, sister!😉 Seriously, I am 29, to answer your question. I was trying to say that “punk” was much more of a vague term in the good old days, (for me the '80s) before thy had a finite lable for everything. I was not trying to come off as preachy, or an expert on the subject…If I did it was unintentional:smack: It was just a personal observation. ---
**Author:** ![Lilly\_Putt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lilly\_Putt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilly_Putt)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2003, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817/71 "2003-03-02T12:35:05Z")
Oops! thy=they. Thy doth not verily lable stuff… Or something.:rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punk-rockers-gangsters-and-goths-oh-my/157817.md?page=3)