# Punt on 3rd down. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 9, 2010, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269 "2010-01-09T12:32:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/21 "2010-01-10T05:47:02Z")
Another reason (but more likely to be seen at lower levels) is when you’re facing 3rd and long, but with a strong wind at your back, going into the end of the quarter. May be better than to run a play and punt into the wind after the break. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/22 "2010-01-10T07:51:35Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > Isn’t that an incomplete pass though? If not what is the difference between the two? I thought you had to declare that you were kicking in order for this to work? You never have to say you’re punting. You can punt on any down as long as it’s behind the line of scrimmage. A punt is most certainly not in any way the same as a forward pass. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/23 "2010-01-10T15:39:28Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > You a Redskins fan, nfm? Used to be an avid fan, back in the Kilmer/Riggins/Theisman and yes Moseley days. It is hard for me to get committed to any team these days, in any sport. After the 1994 baseball strike, I became really bitter. My favorite uncle, a former minor league baseball player, was a devoted baseball fan. He died in November, 1994. The strike deprived my uncle of his last World Series. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/24 "2010-01-10T18:03:34Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > You never have to say you’re punting. You can punt on any down as long as it’s behind the line of scrimmage. A punt is most certainly not in any way the same as a forward pass. Exactly. A “quick kick” is, essentially, a punt that the defense isn’t expecting. When a team punts normally, they send out the punter, the long snapper (who is almost always _not_ the usual center), and a bunch of other special-teamers. 99.99% of the time, this is done on 4th down (honestly, I can’t think of a reason why you’d do this on any down _other_ than 4th, unless you had no confidence whatsoever that you offense could take care of the ball on a prior down). The defense thus knows that there’s a punt coming (unless the offense is planning a fake punt, but a good special-teams coach plans for that), and sends out their punt-coverage team, including a returner, who’s going to position himself 40-50 yards downfield. When a team runs a “quick kick”, it’s almost always done on third-and-long (as in the Randall Cunningham example), and it’s almost always done using normal offensive personnel. It does require a quarterback (or whoever’s receiving the snap) who’s a decent punter. You run a quick-kick when you think you’ve got the element of surprise, since the advantage to a quick kick is that the defense doesn’t know it’s coming. They don’t have a returner stationed downfield, and, so, the odds are strong that the punt will be able to bounce/roll, getting additional yardage. Regardless of which down you punt on, when you punt, the other team takes possession of the ball where the punt ends (or where the return ends, if it’s returned). So, it’s _very_ different from throwing a long incomplete pass (on which the ball comes back to the previous line of scrimmage). ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/25 "2010-01-10T20:31:37Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > It was 91 yards - this came up on the 98 yard punt thread just a couple days ago. [Video here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQKHOMHKT00), though it doesn’t show how far the ball rolled. But there’s clearly a defensive player back deep on that play near midfield (It looks like #30m but I can’t tell for sure) who decides not to field the punt. So I don’t think this was a surprise quick kick. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/26 "2010-01-11T05:03:28Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Exactly. A “quick kick” is, essentially, a punt that the defense isn’t expecting. > > When a team punts normally, they send out the punter, the long snapper (who is almost always _not_ the usual center), and a bunch of other special-teamers. 99.99% of the time, this is done on 4th down (honestly, I can’t think of a reason why you’d do this on any down _other_ than 4th, unless you had no confidence whatsoever that you offense could take care of the ball on a prior down). The defense thus knows that there’s a punt coming (unless the offense is planning a fake punt, but a good special-teams coach plans for that), and sends out their punt-coverage team, including a returner, who’s going to position himself 40-50 yards downfield. > > When a team runs a “quick kick”, it’s almost always done on third-and-long (as in the Randall Cunningham example), and it’s almost always done using normal offensive personnel. It does require a quarterback (or whoever’s receiving the snap) who’s a decent punter. You run a quick-kick when you think you’ve got the element of surprise, since the advantage to a quick kick is that the defense doesn’t know it’s coming. They don’t have a returner stationed downfield, and, so, the odds are strong that the punt will be able to bounce/roll, getting additional yardage. > > Regardless of which down you punt on, when you punt, the other team takes possession of the ball where the punt ends (or where the return ends, if it’s returned). So, it’s _very_ different from throwing a long incomplete pass (on which the ball comes back to the previous line of scrimmage). So do the same rules apply as in a regular punt? Meaning if the opposing team touches the ball can the kicking team recover and retain possession? I know this sounds like a dumb semantic question here but is the only thing that differentiates a “punt” from a “pass” the fact that you are moving the ball with your foot instead of your hand? Is this why a punt on 3rd down is not an incomplete pass, but a hail-mary thrown on the same down by the same QB an incomplete pass? Not sure I’m asking this question right. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/27 "2010-01-11T05:13:37Z")
Yes x4 ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/28 "2010-01-11T08:45:39Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > Yes x4 Last question on this, as I still think it’s bizarre. If it’s 3rd down and I punt, it touches a linemans helmet, bounces down field and my team mate recovers it is it now 1st down? Are those yards counted as yards gained during the game? ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/29 "2010-01-11T14:14:21Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > Last question on this, as I still think it’s bizarre. > > If it’s 3rd down and I punt, it touches a linemans helmet, bounces down field and my team mate recovers it is it now 1st down? Are those yards counted as yards gained during the game? I assume you mean a defensive lineman, here. And I believe the key difference is which side of the line of scrimmage the defender is on when the ball touches him. The defender can try and block the kick before it passes the line of scrimmage. In that case, there’s been no change of possession, and the down doesn’t reset, so even if the kicking team does get it back, they probably don’t have enough yards for a first down. It would take either a very very very bizarre bounce all the way to the first down marker or a very very bizarre bounce to your teammate blocking plus a crazy run by your teammate to reach the first down marker. I think this would be an offensive play and count the yardage. Once the ball passes the line of scrimmage, and a defender (on the receiving team) touches it, I think possession has changed and so whoever ends up with the ball gets a first down. For stats, this would be a kick plus a fumble, not offensive yardage. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/30 "2010-01-11T14:18:59Z")
Yeah, that’s my understanding as well. Far more common (though still not very common at all) is a defender trying to block the punt only gets a piece of it, making the punt weak but still go 30 yards or so. In that case the punting team can’t just fall on it and recover possession because the defender touched the ball on the wrong side of the line of scrimmage. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/31 "2010-01-11T14:20:40Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Once the ball passes the line of scrimmage, and a defender (on the receiving team) touches it, I think possession has changed and so whoever ends up with the ball gets a first down. They don’t need to gain control of the ball for possession to change? This is different than a failed interception attempt then, where they can jump up, swat the ball, bumble it around for a while, but don’t gain control before the ball hits the ground? In that case possession doesn’t change. But with a quick undeclared punt those rules don’t apply any more? All it takes is a fingertip to change possession? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/32 "2010-01-11T14:40:53Z")
Depends on how you view possession. Technically it changes from being in possession of the receiving team to a live ball in nobody’s possession, meaning anyone on the field can jump on it just like a fumble. If it gets knocked out of bounds during the live ball phase, possession reverts back to the last team that had possession, also just like a fumble. Basically, once the receiving team touches the ball past the line of scrimmage it’s a fumble. (Though for stat purposes it’s called a “muff”, not a fumble, if the returner tried to catch it and failed.) ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/33 "2010-01-11T14:49:35Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > All it takes is a fingertip to change possession? On a punt downfield, correct. Also, if the punter has the punt blocked (behind the line of scrimmage), it’s a loose ball (fumble), and the defense can pick it up and advance. [video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugiKhXhnSVU) ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/34 "2010-01-11T15:18:01Z")
Yep, so basically the line of scrimmage is a magical line that once the ball passes, it’s receiver’s possession even if a member of the receiving team got a piece of it. But until it crosses the line of scrimmage it’s a live ball. After crossing the line of scrimmage it’s not live unless/until a member of the receiving team touches it. EXCEPT, heh, if the receiver calls for a fair catch and bobbles it. Even though he touched the ball and doesn’t have possession, the punting team cannot touch him or the ball until the ball hits the ground. Otherwise it’s a fair catch interference call. I think the “hit the ground” isn’t written in stone, in that if the punt bounces of the guy’s helmet and launches in the air 20 feet away I don’t think there’s an issue with fair catch interference if you run over and catch it, but I don’t the precise rule for that situation. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/35 "2010-01-11T15:24:01Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > But there’s clearly a defensive player back deep on that play near midfield (It looks like #30m but I can’t tell for sure) who decides not to field the punt. So I don’t think this was a surprise quick kick. Yeah, it looks like the Eagles were lined up in punt formation, but with their regular offense on the field, so probably the Giants had a chance to drop someone back (though hard to tell, and I don’t remember clearly enough, if they had enough time for the guy to get all the way back, and he’d have been a free safety or cornerback or something and not a regular punt returner). ---
**Author:** ![Ponch8](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponch8/32/9883_2.png) [@Ponch8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponch8)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/36 "2010-01-12T14:44:22Z")
I was at a Florida game during Steve Spurrier’s tenure as coach there. He decided to punt on a 3rd down simply because he was so frustrated by his offense’s performance that day. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/37 "2010-01-12T19:58:57Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Exactly. A “quick kick” is, essentially, a punt that the defense isn’t expecting. > > When a team punts normally, they send out the punter, the long snapper (who is almost always _not_ the usual center), and a bunch of other special-teamers. 99.99% of the time, this is done on 4th down (honestly, I can’t think of a reason why you’d do this on any down _other_ than 4th, unless you had no confidence whatsoever that you offense could take care of the ball on a prior down). You do it if you want to pin the other team deep in their territory, and you have confidence that your defense will be able to stop the other team. Back in the day, when offenses were not nearly so potent, this was a common strategy. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/38 "2010-01-12T20:45:20Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > So do the same rules apply as in a regular punt? Meaning if the opposing team touches the ball can the kicking team recover and retain possession? > > I know this sounds like a dumb semantic question here but is the only thing that differentiates a “punt” from a “pass” the fact that you are moving the ball with your foot instead of your hand? Is this why a punt on 3rd down is not an incomplete pass, but a hail-mary thrown on the same down by the same QB an incomplete pass? > > Not sure I’m asking this question right. The rules aren’t identical. if you don’t line up for a punt I don’t believe the punter gets protection from the defense, in other words no roughing the kicker calls. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/39 "2010-01-12T21:44:09Z")
November 27, 1925: #1 ranked University of Michigan plays creampuff Northwestern at Soldier Field in Chicago. After buckets of rain had flooded the field, it had become little more than a mudpit. From [George Beres: One Man's View...](http://hailtopurple.com/features/beres03.html) (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > Northwestern took the opening kickoff and was stopped inside its 30. The Wildcats immediately established the stalemate pattern for the game by **punting on first down**. Clearly, it was a liability to have possession of the ball on your side of midfield. > > That first punt became the game’s pivotal point. Michigan’s All-American quarterback, Benny Friedman, fumbled the ball, and Northwestern recovered deep in Wolverine territory. > > Three attempts into the line gained nothing. Then Wildcat fullback, Tiny Lewis, moved back to the Wolverine 18 to try a drop-kicked field goal. The kick had just enough distance to get over the crossbar, barely missing one of the uprights. For the first time in six games, Michigan had been scored upon! > > The field goal, coming on the first series of the game, was with a comparatively dry ball. Soon the ball became waterlogged, making it even harder to handle and further neutralizing the offenses. The supply of balls was limited. Eckersall was able to put new ones into play only twice: at the start of the third and fourth quarters. > > For the rest of the game, nature dictated identical game plans for both teams: make two attempts to gain, **then punt on third down**. When two plays failed to gain a first down (there was only one in the game), it became routine for Eckersall to call time so he could wipe the ball for the anticipated third down punt. Michigan had won its previous five games by a combined score of 180-0. But Northwestern’s field goal won this game, costing Michigan the national championship. I highly recommend the link above for the full entertaining account of the game. ETA: Later in the game, Northwestern took an intentional safety to secure the 3-2 win. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Nene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/da6949/32.png) [@El\_Nene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Nene)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269/40 "2010-01-12T21:53:11Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > It’s a good idea if you’re in Canada. Not [always.](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/recap?gameId=291203002) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/punt-on-3rd-down/524269.md?page=3)