# Purely suicide attacks before the kamikazes **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/purely-suicide-attacks-before-the-kamikazes/497047 "2009-05-20T04:42:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/purely-suicide-attacks-before-the-kamikazes/497047/21 "2009-05-21T02:08:35Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > The OP is based on a false premise : Oka pilots did have a chance to bail out at the last second, and many did. Of course, they also were expected to kill themselves rather than face the disgrace of a capture… > > Anyhoo. > > The Charge of the Light Brigade comes to mind (as well as many rearguard actions designed to buy the main army some time to retreat - sure, none were designed \*to \*kill the rearguard, but…) > > Also, in any siege assault, the first guys to scale the wall had a very, very low chance to survive once up there (if they even made it to the top), since they’d by definition be surrounded with no way to retreat. Surprisingly, in some cases people argued over who’d get the honor and glory of getting an axe to the face first. > > Finally, in the spirit of the Dirty Dozen, [penal batallions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_battalion) were tried many times throughout history, and sent to do the worst, most dangerous tasks, but for obvious reasons discipline and results were problematic. It’s very much a Hail Mary pass. > > That’s not exactly a Japanese exclusivity - every warrior culture impresses upon its members that death in battle is the worthiest of deaths. I mean, the US does it too, heroic sacrifices, memorials and all that - “don’t try to be a hero and come back home” is a fairly recent doctrine. \*\*The only difference is, the Japanese \*really \*stuck to their guns on that one \*\*🙂 That’s true but isn’t the modern interpretation of a “suicide attack” one that involves a single player on one side being able to inflict heavy damage on the other side with some form of explosive (planes into ships, bombs, IED’s, etc)? I can’t think of a historical equivalent whereby there was absolutely ZERO doubt that the carrier of the suicide mission had ZERO chance of surviving…and invloved such one-sided damage. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/purely-suicide-attacks-before-the-kamikazes/497047/22 "2009-05-21T04:10:31Z")
> [@Sweetums](#): > > Really? Cite? Everything I have read or seen on the Okha, including the replica at Wright Pat. mentions that the cockpit was bolted shut from the outside. They were purposely designed to be a one way trip not matter what. I’ll second that. The [Okha](http://www.combinedfleet.com/ijna/mxy7.htm) was a suicide weapon, pure and simple. It was a terminally guided rocket bomb with a human providing the guidance all the way to impact. It would make no sense for the pilot to bail out as it would remove the guidance. It would also make no sense as the pilot wouldn’t survive anyway as he would now be in the water right next to the ship he flew a bomb into. In any event, the OP isn’t based on a false premise; kamikaze missions were suicide missions. “Special Attack,” the euphemism for suicide units wasn’t limited to kamikazes and Okhas either, there was the [kaiten](http://combinedfleet.com/ship.php?q=kaiten.htm) suicide torpedo, the Shinyo suicide motor boat, suicide diver squads, suicide human anti-tank squads, you name it. There’s a good listing [here](http://www.ww2pacific.com/suicide.html). When the battleship Yamato was sent to attack Okinawa, it was designated as being a special attack mission. I’d be very wary of trusting anime as being at all historically reliable; I loved Starblazers but it didn’t exactly provide an accurate history of the end of the Yamato in the first episode ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/purely-suicide-attacks-before-the-kamikazes/497047/23 "2009-05-21T13:30:54Z")
I recall reading that the ancient Celts (?) painted themselves blue, stripped naked, and would deliberately impale themselves on the lance of a Roman soldier, pushing as far up as they could to be able to kill the Roman. However, I have no cite, only a vague memory of reading this. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/purely-suicide-attacks-before-the-kamikazes/497047/24 "2009-05-21T19:29:50Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > …suicide torpedo, the Shinyo suicide motor boat, suicide diver squads, suicide human anti-tank squads, you name it… …suicide badminton teams, suicide crosswalk guards, suicide 24-hour laundromats, suicide birthday clowns… And let us not forget the dreaded [Judean People’s Front Crack Suicide Squad.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAGxGp1Bjgs) ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/purely-suicide-attacks-before-the-kamikazes/497047/25 "2009-05-21T19:55:38Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > …suicide badminton teams, suicide crosswalk guards, suicide 24-hour laundromats, suicide birthday clowns… Oh, frak! I just HATE the suicide birthday clowns. Beep their nose and POW! ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/purely-suicide-attacks-before-the-kamikazes/497047/26 "2009-05-21T21:36:59Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > They normally killed themselves because they knew they’d likely be tortured to death if captured. No, not tortured usually. Unless somebody had a serious grudge, that wasn’t in the cards. And common warriors, or just Samurai without a lot of cash, or mercenaries, were routinely sighned up to the victor’s forces after a battle. However, nobles and such were very likely to be killed anyway, so a suicidal death in battle was arguably a more heroic option. This actually does differentiate things from European warfare, where defeated foes were usually _ransomed_. Treatment of common soldiers differed a lot over time, although mass executions were usually reserved for when the soldiers were treated as hostages. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/purely-suicide-attacks-before-the-kamikazes/497047/27 "2009-05-21T21:47:29Z")
So this [this](http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_was_the_first_suicide_bomber)link mentions two early cases. There is a reference to a sucide attack by the Knights Templar during the crusades (that I cannot find a reliable cite for) and by this incident in the Beligan War of Independence… > [@](#): > > When the Belgian War of Independence broke out Van Speijk [A Dutch naval officer and national hero] gained an appointment as commander of a gunboat. Van Speijk despised the Belgian independence movement. He announced once he would rather die “than become an infamous Brabander”. On February 5, 1831, a gale caused his boat to drift into the quay at the port of Antwerp. Belgians stormed the boat and demanded Van Speijk take the Dutch flag down. Rather than doing so, he fired a pistol (some versions say he threw a lit cigar — few firsthand witness accounts survive) into a barrel of gunpowder while saying “Dan liever de lucht in” (which translates as, “Rather to blow up, then”). The total number of casualties he caused remains unknown: possibly dozens of people. Twenty-eight of the 31 members of his crew were killed in the explosion. > **[Jan van Speijk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_van_Speijk)** > > Lieutenant-Commander Jan Carel Josephus van Speijk (31 January 1802 – 5 February 1831), also known as van Speyk, was a Royal Netherlands Navy officer who became a public hero in the Netherlands for his opposition to the Belgian Revolution. > Born in Amsterdam, Batavian Commonwealth on 13 January 1802, van Speijk was orphaned at the age of 10. When he was 18 years old, he joined the Royal Netherlands Navy and served in the Dutch East Indies from 1823 to 1825. He engaged in anti-piracy operations ... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/purely-suicide-attacks-before-the-kamikazes/497047.md?page=1)