Purity Balls

Great Debates
101

[QUOTE=IntelSoldier]
Why are you all assuming that the parents aren’t educating their daughters about sex? I’m pretty sure that the fathers who care about their daughters enough to take them to a ball like this certainly care enough to talk to them too.
[/QUOTE]

Well, there’s a simple enough reason to believe that these girls aren’t being educated about sex; the father admits that they aren’t because sex education is bad.

Now, in my understanding, this means the father is taking the opinion that sex education is bad because it makes him uncomfortable. Having to deal with the issues of celebrities and other women having sex really bothers him to the point where he doesn’t want to (note that I didn’t say “not capable of”) have to discuss these issues in the context of how he views his daughters should conduct themselves with men.

None of the daughters of Randy have been kissed before marriage. Hell, Dr. Phil even asks what he’d do if one of them admits to him that she was kissed by a boy, and that apparently would lead to confrontation about “upholding the ideals” of the promise that was made with these purity balls. In all seriousness, WTF? I have a hard time trusting that this man can make a rational argument as to why it’s okay to stunt his daughters’ emotional growth by restricting the experiences that most of us have in our teens and twenties to “after marriage.” Yes, that 22 year old daughter didn’t have to suffer for long, but I’m going to be surprised if at least one daughter in this family isn’t screwed up (or remains sheltered to this stupid extent) at some point.

Besides, why make a public announcement to show off that you’re a role model for your kids? A bit egotistic, no?

102

I cannot imagine that a father would proudly announce to an audience that his son had never kissed anyone before getting married. I can’t even imagine a father discussing his son’s sexuality in front of others.

These are the same people who gasp in horror when they hear about honor killings. No, purity balls are not the same thing but they’re on the same dangerous continuum. Anyone with sense can see that.

103

Why didn’t ya’ll tell me about the Dr. Phil show? I’d of loved to see it, will have to let my TIVO find it.

Cartooniverse, I absolutely understand what you are saying. I think that it is interesting that we are on the same side of the Purity Ball discussion, except that while your description of your relationship with your daughter SOUNDS healthy (I suppose) there are aspects of it that creep me the heck out. I’ll explain.

My father is/was/always will be a child molester. For the most part, I was not raised around him, but was exposed to him enough over the years to be appropriately scarred by his insanity. Through my nieces and nephews and now my daughter, I am learning what normal behavior is between a father/daughter. Your daughter is 15 and sits on your lap? I get very uncomfortable when I see this sort of thing because for me, it WAS a perverted thing. It’s hard for me to separate. It is outside my realm. However, I am learning. And while my husband may internally deeply desire to stick his fingers in his hears and yell “LA LA LA, I CAN’T HEAR YOU.” when it comes to my daughter reaching that age, he’s a pretty outwardly rational guy. He’s handled many difficult things with surprising aplomb. Right now, he’s pretty hip to his daughter giving him unsolicited kisses and being a snuggle bunny and I think he will, like most parents, miss those days.

The purity balls offend me for many reasons. From my experience, the only father I ever knew (including my friends fathers) that ever gave a shit about our “purity” status WAS the child molester.

While historically it may have been the fathers job to protect his daughters “integrity” I’m hard pressed to be able to recall a society that makes the daughters pledge to the father such things. Cloak it however you want, but basically these things are completely insane. My husband and I can do more by our actions than any frilly dress or dance or pledge could ever do.

I’m laughing at the post upthread of the person who would negotiate with her boyfriends what she could do to still remain “pure.” If her boyfriends were actual boys, I’m sure the negotiations were pretty darn fierce. :slight_smile: Or am I the only person that ever heard the “I just want to touch it.” line of reasoning?

So did Dr. Phil ever bring up the subject of boys? and the mothers? Where the hell are they in this picture?

104

Mom mentioned she caught some of it, and that Dr Phil asked for opinions and said he planned to do a show just dedicated to this.

Could be an interesting watch.

105

[QUOTE=Auntbeast]
…except that while your description of your relationship with your daughter SOUNDS healthy (I suppose) there are aspects of it that creep me the heck out.
[/QUOTE]
You “suppose”? I hope that you didn’t mean this to be as offensive as it sounds. As described, Cartooniverse’s relationship with his daughter, even her sitting on his lap at age 15, is perfectly normal and healthy. I’m sorry that you didn’t have a healthy relationship with your father and that you’re suspicious of other dads.

I think it’s crazy for people to say that it’s unhealthy for a father to discuss sex and be aware of his daughter’s growth. This is stupid. He’s her dad, it’s his job to teach her about life and to know when the rules should change and discussions should be had. It’s not creepy and wrong.

106

[QUOTE=Flutterby]
Mom mentioned she caught some of it, and that Dr Phil asked for opinions and said he planned to do a show just dedicated to this.

Could be an interesting watch.
[/QUOTE]

I agree. I’m more than a little surprised that he said he was on the fence about it. As if Purity (or do you say “Purdy”) Balls and teenage sexuality were somehow connected.

107

[QUOTE=grayhairedmomma]
You “suppose”? I hope that you didn’t mean this to be as offensive as it sounds. As described, Cartooniverse’s relationship with his daughter, even her sitting on his lap at age 15, is perfectly normal and healthy. I’m sorry that you didn’t have a healthy relationship with your father and that you’re suspicious of other dads.

I think it’s crazy for people to say that it’s unhealthy for a father to discuss sex and be aware of his daughter’s growth. This is stupid. He’s her dad, it’s his job to teach her about life and to know when the rules should change and discussions should be had. It’s not creepy and wrong.
[/QUOTE]

What’s unhealthy is that the father has practically criminalized any sort of physical intimacy, including kissing. I’d like to know what he’d do to her if she decided to go ahead and kiss a boy.

108

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
What’s unhealthy is that the father has practically criminalized any sort of physical intimacy, including kissing. I’d like to know what he’d do to her if she decided to go ahead and kiss a boy.
[/QUOTE]

Well, from his reaction to Dr. Phil’s question, probably confront her in an antagonistic manner at the very least. I wouldn’t be surprised if the guy ended up making his daughters a bit of a head case over any such incident. They’ve already got the makings for being deluded, sheltered, uninformed adults as it is. Add a little neurosis in there and they could explode.

109

[QUOTE=nashiitashii]
Well, from his reaction to Dr. Phil’s question, probably confront her in an antagonistic manner at the very least. I wouldn’t be surprised if the guy ended up making his daughters a bit of a head case over any such incident. They’ve already got the makings for being deluded, sheltered, uninformed adults as it is. Add a little neurosis in there and they could explode.
[/QUOTE]

I think it might go farther than that. Forbidding them to date, threatening alienation from the family, etc. I can’t imagine them being able to engage in normal relationships with their spouses. There’d always be that dad thing.

110

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
What’s unhealthy is that the father has practically criminalized any sort of physical intimacy, including kissing. I’d like to know what he’d do to her if she decided to go ahead and kiss a boy.
[/QUOTE]

The comment I had in mind (which for some reason I thought more than one person had made, don’t know why upon rereading the thread) was this one:

[QUOTE=tashabot]
Seriously, it’s not healthy to be interested in your 11-year-old’s sexuality. I have problems getting my husband to understand that his 13-year-old is entering puberty and is “going to be interested in boys” now. My dad was so upset when I got my period that he didn’t look me in the eye for a week - not because I was bleeding, but because it meant I could get pregnant now and it made him uncomfortable. His baby girl was growing up. (Incidentally, he has problems even now, 10 years later, despite the fact that I’m married, knowing that I have sex. It really bothers him. A lot - because he remembers the 7-year-old tomboy who would run crying to daddy when she skinned her knees falling out of a tree)

Any father who would WANT to talk about sex to their 11-year-old really disturbs me, honestly. An 11-year-old is not a sexual being (in normal circumstances, anyway). They’re little girls confused by the weird changes they’re starting to get in their bodies. They do not need something like this muddling it.
[/quote]

It seems really, really strange to me that she thinks her dad’s reaction to her entering puberty and having a sexual relationship with her husband is normal. 11-years old is not an unreasonably early age to start talking about sex with your daughter, especially if she’s already started developing. It isn’t as if the father is showing the girl pornos and talking about blow jobs.

111

[QUOTE=grayhairedmomma]
It isn’t as if the father is showing the girl pornos and talking about blow jobs.
[/QUOTE]
That’s her uncle’s job.

112

[QUOTE=grayhairedmomma]
You “suppose”? I hope that you didn’t mean this to be as offensive as it sounds. As described, Cartooniverse’s relationship with his daughter, even her sitting on his lap at age 15, is perfectly normal and healthy. I’m sorry that you didn’t have a healthy relationship with your father and that you’re suspicious of other dads.

I think it’s crazy for people to say that it’s unhealthy for a father to discuss sex and be aware of his daughter’s growth. This is stupid. He’s her dad, it’s his job to teach her about life and to know when the rules should change and discussions should be had. It’s not creepy and wrong.
[/QUOTE]

I suspect she did not. I’m not offended at all because she articulated the thinking behind her “creepy” response and you know what- I appreciate her candor. What a shitty awful thing to have to live with/through. I’m sorry she had to- and I know well that she’s not the only Doper reading this thread who has lived with a child molester.

I do agree with you, grayhairedmomma, that it is the parents’ job to teach their kids about life, but in a healthy safe positive way. The way Auntbeast learned about life and relationships was all wrong, and that’s a rough thing to have to live with.

tashabot, since I can approach this conversation from a place of security and not a place of defensiveness, I can say this to you: It is enormously complex, and I don’t mean to make it sound simple. My daughter is 15 and change. She hasn’t had a boyfriend yet so I’ve not had to deal with HER dealing with her own sexuality, and I’ve not had to deal with any of those father issues. I know what I know, which is that I respect her ability to make choices and know that SHE knows to turn to both of her parents for support and help and love, and acceptance. If she has those positive things in her back pocket, the only boys reaching into her front pockets will be doing so at her behest.

From where I sit, that’s as healthy a way to approach my kids as I can have. Having said all of this, I’m in no way trying to be critical of your father OR husband, tashabot. Nobody can re-write or criticize someone else’s comfort levels with these things. We can and should criticize abuse and manipulation, but just levels of discomfort? C’mon, everyone handles all of this differently.

I just read back my post in Preview and want to add this. I am aware that my presence in my daughter’s life ( unlike my son’s life **) represents a safe positive loving relationship with plenty of physicality. I sure as hell hope it always does. The moment she falls in love with someone, she will have let someone else in and expanded the group of those she trusts implicitly. I suspect my relationship with her will change somewhat, and that is as it should be.

Oh, Cervaise? Your seat at the right hand of Satan, Prince of Darkness is ready. Will you be having white or red with your Eternal Feast of Damnation? :smiley:
** My presence in my son’s life is no less safe or loving but is not nearly a physical, hence the demarcation up there.

113

There is absolutely no way I would take any of my daughters to a ball like this, not even if they asked me.

The idea makes me want to throw up.

114

“Ten Simple Rules for Dating my Daughter” (Work safe)

I like #'s 9& 10 the best!

115

Creeptastic.

116

Though those ‘rules’ are supposed to be funny, they still have the same theme that I find so disturbing in the way girls are treated vs the way boys are.

Protect the sweet, innocent girls from the evil, horny boys.

Sad.

117

Agreed.

No only does it pre-program girls to believe they are victims in all things sexual but it also robs them of the possibility of seeing themselves as sexually empowered beings.

On the flipside, the lesson is equally destructive for boys who read crapola like that. " Get whatever you can get “off” a girl before she yells or tells. " Nice. :rolleyes:

118

My dad used to make the ‘jokes’ about cleaning his guns when a boy came over to pick me up or whatnot from the time I was a little kid. After years and years of hearing what he would do to any boy who touched his daughter, I got one message loud and clear.

Dad can never meet any of them.

If I wanted my own life and my ability to make my own decisions regarding men, relationships, sex, or what have you, I had to cut him out of the loop. My mother warned him that he was either going to stunt my growth or cut himself out of the loop. I was too willful for the former, so I chose to make sure he remained uninformed.

Boys and girls should be treated the same way: with honesty and respect. It shouldn’t be that the girls are treated like Rapunzel in the tower and boys treated like Don Juan in the harem.