Pursuit of ethnic diversity a contributing factor in Baltimore City FF recruit death

[Waenara]

@casdave

I just can’t imagine how she passed the basic medical examination.

192 pounds at 5’4" ?

Now that is some overweight for a female.

If perhaps she had shown a reduction in weight and an improvement in performance over some time, then maybe she was in with a reasonable chance, but someone who does not address such a basic problem that is crucial to success in a particular field is simply not the sort of person that has the personal attributes to deal with the kninds of stress this work will bring.

This is not a fattism issue, its about looking at yorself and assessing your capabilities, and doing what it takes to meet the requirements by addressing the issue, not avoiding it and lowering standards.

While she definitely wasn’t fit enough to be a firefighter (as she didn’t pass the standardized physical test), I don’t think you can deduce simply from her weight that she was fat.

Athletes often have an overweight or even obese BMI, as muscle weighs more than fat. When I was in university I was a trainer/first aid person for several sports teams (hockey, rugby, football and others), and I’ve known many college athletes who would be considered overweight if you only looked at height/weight, but they’re obviously in fantastic shape.

[Trunk]

@Waenara

While she definitely wasn’t fit enough to be a firefighter (as she didn’t pass the standardized physical test), I don’t think you can deduce simply from her weight that she was fat.

Athletes often have an overweight or even obese BMI, as muscle weighs more than fat. When I was in university I was a trainer/first aid person for several sports teams (hockey, rugby, football and others), and I’ve known many college athletes who would be considered overweight if you only looked at height/weight, but they’re obviously in fantastic shape.

Come on.

A linebacker at 6’1" 240 is one thing.

5’4" 192. Female. Not a football player. That’s a tub of goo.

Still, I think the OP is sort of unfair.

As another guy said, there were 50 safety violations at the scene that day. To pick out the fact that she was unfit, and that that was because of affirmative action is indicative of an agenda.

It would be like if a health care advocate was blaming McDonald’s for her death because she was so heavy.

These training exercises are supposed to be more controlled.

If she hadn’t passed the agility test and couldn’t handle a hose, someone with experience with these test-burns should have realized you don’t send her up to the third floor, if you send her in at all.

She’s just a recruit, and wants to be a firefighter, so I can forgive her choice to go in. She can’t be insubordinate. But, someone with a history and knowledge of fighting fires HAS to recognize the danger of letting her go in there.

Of course, the guy whose job it was to oversee was out that day and the guy in charge, well, this wasn’t his job.

Maybe they become ungauarded because this has’t happened in a while, but it seems to point to a culture of complacency.

So, basically, I find it much easier to blame the stupid, white men who were in charge of her training. . .the chief and the exercise supervisor.

[danceswithcats]

Thank you, Klaatu. You read and clearly understood why I was taking issue with the posts by our dear mod. Nitpicking bullshit.

Sorry for hurting your feelings with my hurled invective, Tom. The Pit is a place for occasional harsh talk. Man up, would ya?

I’ve read every article I can find on the topic, and had an individual or group been named, it would have been in the OP or a followup post.

As to the Mayor, she is the Chief Executive of the City, and is therefore, ultimately responsible for what happens on her watch. If she was aware of a potentially injurious policy, be it written or unwritten, then she is directly culpable. If she was unaware of said policy, she is deficient by way of ignorance.

For the sake of information, casdave, it’s important to point out that a baseline physical and a physical agility test are two different things. NFPA 1582, Medical Requirements for Firefighters, is a screening process to determine if you have a preexistent condition which should disqualify you from firefighting. Fail that, and you shouldn’t be a firefighter. Next is an agility test, to gauge your actual conditioning. Fail that, and you shouldn’t be a firefighter. Improve, try again, and pass? Good on ya.

Sorry you feel the OP is unfair, Trunk. Let me try to state this a different way. There can be the most egregiously dangerous training evolution set up, but if I disallow you from participating because you’re not capable, you won’t get hurt. You’re right, I do have an agenda. Every year in the US we bury ~ 100 firefighters (combination of career+volunteer). 84 line of duty deaths have been reported to the USFA for 2007 as of last Wednesday. The single greatest killer is sudden cardiac events. A 30 year study by the NFPA shows that despite an overall reduction in firefighter fatalities, cardiac events are still number one, claiming ~ 45%. Although I am not a physician, it’s reasonable to state that an individual in poor physical condition is more likely to suffer a cardiac event than one who is fit. If you’re not qualified, but we don’t let you participate, we won’t have to bury you. It’s that simple.

[tomndebb]

Hurt my feelings? My feelings are never hurt because other posters lack reading comprehension.

[Fir_na_tine]

Danceswithcats, I’ve been following this thread and the various threads over at firehouse.com

From everything I read in the NFPA report it’s no better than 50-50 than even a fully fit FF would have made it out of that evolution alive. The exercise was set up as a killer and it succeeded. I suspect the Chief will be the next one shitcanned and it wouldn’t surprise me to see some criminal indictments arise out of this mess. Very similar to the situation in upstate New York (Lairdsville) a few years ago.

[picunurse]

Article from the Baltimore Examiner 8/24/2007, for what it’s worth.

[RedSwinglineOne]

@Fir na tine

Danceswithcats, I’ve been following this thread and the various threads over at firehouse.com

From everything I read in the NFPA report it’s no better than 50-50 than even a fully fit FF would have made it out of that evolution alive…

I’m not sure I would agree. Wilson made it to a window, but was unable to get out.

Wenger stated that once he assisted Cisneros out of the building, Wilson came to the window and told him she needed to get out. The window sill was 41 inches from the floor and Wenger recalled having to pull himself up in order to get out. Wilson, at five feet, four inches, was smaller in height than Wenger who appears to be at least six feet tall, so she was having difficulty getting through the window. He reached in the window and tried to pull Wilson out by the harness of her breathing apparatus, which was the same method he used to remove Cisneros. Wenger appears to have been able to lift or pull her torso, head, and upper extremities out of the window, but was unable to move her enough to clear her lower extremities. He asked her if she could help him and she replied that she could not help, as she was burning up and could not take the heat. Wilson was wearing the face piece of her breathing apparatus at that time.

At least three others made it out the same window as Wilson. Two of them were of similar height, but less weight.

Paramedic Cisneros and FPA Strawsburg were both similar in height to Wilson, as Cisneros is five feet, three inches tall, and Strawsburg is five feet, four inches, the same as Wilson. Their weights, however, differ from Wilson, as they are approximately 36 to 57 pounds lighter. This is not meant to imply that Wilson’s weight was a factor, but Cisneros and Strawsburg were removed through the window with minimal assistance, whereas it took at least four firefighters to rescue Wilson.

Bolding mine.

[The_King_of_Soup]

This is getting to be either more or less than reality-based.

DancesInABibCat both see the situation in an astonishing way. They see lowered standards on a written test and less rigor in a background check, which may have been (it still hasn’t been proven) a device to increase the numbers of minority trainees, and they look for ill effects which they can blame generically on efforts to include minorities. In this case, the “problem” is the tragic death of a black woman who may have been physically unfit to train as a firefighter, which shortcoming contributed to her death in a complete fiasco of a training exercise that went so wrong that the fire department had to call the fire department.

Hmm. No evidence that Ms. Wilson could not have passed the original written test and background check. If she was favored unfairly, it was because she was given a pass on the physical/agility tests. Now, let’s try to think. The physical/agility tests were not adjusted in order to accommodate minorities. Okay, in some people’s minds, they were, but let’s have some sympathy: someone will eventually realize that this theory explains the pathetic underrepresentation of african-americans in professional sports, and a clash with reality may ensue.

Of course, the easy pass on the physical/agility tests had nothing to do with minority recruitment, and the report cited in the OP makes that clear. Which means that Ms. Wilson’s death was due to her lack of agility (and 49 other reasons), but not to Baltimore’s race politics or attempts at affirmative action. So, basically, the OP is a crock, conflating the assumption of racial politics behind a lowering of some standards with a feigned horror at a tragedy that resulted from unenforced but *completely different * standards, where the laxity benefitted (if anyone) an older white majority.

So, this pitting is a very poorly reasoned attempt to find fault with efforts to increase minority hiring in public-safety jobs in Baltimore. There’s a lot of this sort of thing up there, I hear.

[crowmanyclouds]

@Hentor the Barbarian

Not really. Your answer seemed more to pirouette repeatedly away from a direct response. I found The King of Soup’s response to be much more direct and forthright. Seems to me like you left a great deal out of your OP and continued to leave it out when asked specifically about it.

But I’m so very glad you didn’t want at all to minimize any of those other reasons for the incident.

Hmmm, why does that sound familiar?

Why improve when you can sue? Maybe Johnny can’t read cuz teacher has teh dumb.,
ahh, I remember now.

CMC fnord!

[Klaatu]

The problem is that a person who was clearly unfit to be a firefighter was allowed to continue with training and ultimately died because SHE WAS UNFIT TO BE A FIREFIGHTER! PERIOD!

What is so hard to understand?

[Little_Nemo]

The problem is that a person who was clearly unfit to be a firefighter was allowed to continue with training and ultimately died because SHE WAS UNFIT TO BE A FIREFIGHTER! PERIOD!

What is so hard to understand?

Nothing. I agree with that. It’s how one person’s death is spun into evidence that “ethnic diversity” kills people that I have issues with.

[Klaatu]

I don’t think anyone is saying that in the broad sense ethnic diversity kills people, only that perhaps in this particular case, the pursuit of ethnic diversity resulted in the death of an unqualified applicant.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Klaatu

I don’t think anyone is saying that in the broad sense ethnic diversity kills people, only that perhaps in this particular case, the pursuit of ethnic diversity resulted in the death of an unqualified applicant.

Well, 49 other things, and that.

[Trunk]

@Klaatu

I don’t think anyone is saying that in the broad sense ethnic diversity kills people, only that perhaps in this particular case, the pursuit of ethnic diversity resulted in the death of an unqualified applicant.

Except I’m not saying that at all.

To view this as a product of an attempt to increase diversity at all, is to simply declare one’s conservative agenda.

You see, I think it’s easier to read this as white men (who were the primary overseers of the training exercise) actively trying to exterminate black people in ways that aren’t illegal.

That’s my agenda, so that’s my interpretation of the facts!

[Nava]

@BiblioCat

Racheal Wilson, the FF cadet who was killed in the training exercise, was 5’4" and weighed 192 pounds.

1’60m and 86 kilos? SHIT!

I’m on record here many times saying that I don’t believe BMI on its own is a good measure of whether you’re fat or not, but Mom and me are that height and lemme tell you, 86 kg on a female at this height would be fat for anybody but the most extreme of bodybuilders.

I don’t care whether it was a man, a woman or a penguin… she just wasn’t in any kind of shape to be a firefighter. And she wasn’t “slight” at all. I know many small people who are perfectly fine on the strength department, but she wasn’t small - she needed to get in shape, which she wasn’t at all.

[Nava]

@the raindog

Question[s]:

What if the job is to wrestle your fat ass to the ground during a domestic dispute and put cuffs on you? Or chase you down a dark alley and engage in a physical altercation and effect an arrest? Or kick down a door and bring down a kidnapper?
What if it means running 60 yards at full tilt with body armor and 75 pounds of gear on your back to save a wounded soldier? What about engaging in hand to hand combat with [an almost exclusively] male who aims to kill you?
What if it means shoveling asphalt into a hopper as you black top a road; or carry hundreds of pounds of material up a fully extended extension ladder while working as an iron worker? What about working as a hod carrier or roofer?

Does the rationale (of I don’t care whether it’s a man or a woman or a penguin) still apply?

(parenthesis in the quote added by me)

Yes, why shouldn’t it?

Just last week a friend asked me “so, I take it you haven’t been having that problem of getting paid less than male colleagues?” “I haven’t, but I’ve been having the problem of being vetoed from certain lines of job or told I can’t be an engineer because ‘you’re a girl!’”

People should be chosen on the basis of qualification, interest on the job… not on the basis of the color of their skin. Being an engineer requires me to use what’s between my ears, not between my legs - yet I get judged by what’s between my legs constantly.

[you_with_the_face]

@The King of Soup

Hmm. No evidence that Ms. Wilson could not have passed the original written test and background check. If she was favored unfairly, it was because she was given a pass on the physical/agility tests. Now, let’s try to think. The physical/agility tests were not adjusted in order to accommodate minorities. Okay, in some people’s minds, they were, but let’s have some sympathy: someone will eventually realize that this theory explains the pathetic underrepresentation of african-americans in professional sports, and a clash with reality may ensue.

Hello? I thought I was the only one trying to figure out what the hell race had to do with this, and I stayed out of the discussion until now because of this sincere bewilderment. I mean, if AA must absolutely be blamed on this woman’s death, isn’t it obvious that its gender-based AA?

I swear, whenever I see people ranting about how bad AA is and then immediately aim their fingers at black folks trying to cheat the system–and at the same time, turning a blind eye to what is most obvious and substantial–then I can’t help think society is not ready to get rid of AA just yet. It’s a sad statement, but it’s the honest truth.

[Contrapuntal]

@you with the face

Hello? I thought I was the only one trying to figure out what the hell race had to do with this, and I stayed out of the discussion until now because of this sincere bewilderment. I mean, if AA must absolutely be blamed on this woman’s death, isn’t it obvious that its gender-based AA?

Indeed. Note this quote from Warren Brown, the attorney for Wilson’s family. (From picnurse’s cite.)

Brown told WBAL News that the basis for the lawsuit will be the alleged violation of Wilson’s civil rights by those within the fire department who did not want her to succeed.

Brown also characterized the conspiracy as a “gender feud.” Brown does not think that Wilson’s race played a role.

[Trunk]

Warren Brown is Baltimore’s Johnny Cochrane. Anything he says should be taken as trying the case in the media. . .an attempt to sway the jury’s opinion before it gets to court. That’s not to say he’s not right.

I was actually in jury selection for one of his trials.

Also, over the weekend, a guy who had been shot drove his SUV through a cement wall and into Warren’s pool, and died there!

[xcheopis]

@Trunk

Come on.

A linebacker at 6’1" 240 is one thing.

5’4" 192. Female. Not a football player. That’s a tub of goo.

Really? You have a picture available that shows her to be a “tub of goo”?