# Pushing c in Star Trek **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, star-trek-paramount\ **Created:** [September 11, 2023, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956 "2023-09-11T22:54:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ponderoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponderoid/32/19221_2.png) [@Ponderoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponderoid)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/1 "2023-09-11T22:54:54Z")
In Star Trek canon, was there ever any reason presented why a warp-capable vessel couldn’t push their warp engines or impluse drive right up to just under warp 1, aka 1x the speed of light, aka c? A ship going at say warp 0.9999995 would have a gamma of 1000, and thus easy time travel into the future. Numbers courtesy ChatGPT with the Wolfram Alpha plugin: ``` For γ=10^3, v≈0.9999995c For γ=10^4, v≈0.999999995c For γ=10^5, v≈0.99999999995c ``` I remember in ST:TMP, in their initial test flight with the modified warp engine, they gradually approached warp 1 before finally hitting it and then having issues. But if they had stayed right below warp 1? ETA: Interesting, Discourse automatically added that star trek tag and reformatted my numbers in that highlighted box. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/2 "2023-09-11T23:12:05Z")
Presumably, if you’re under warp at all, you’re not subject to the usual conditions of Special Relativity, even if you’re only at Warp 0.9 or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/3 "2023-09-11T23:24:27Z")
Forget about ever getting anything that makes the remotest trace of sense in Trek physics. The writers seem go know or care nothing about it. Ships on impulse already travel at high multiples of light speed, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/4 "2023-09-11T23:28:58Z")
I don’t think impulse speed ever reaches the speed of light. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/5 "2023-09-11T23:32:55Z")
They _claim_ it doesn’t. But then they show ships traveling light hours or light days inside of solar systems in minutes on impulse. That’s my point–they either don’t know or don’t care how stupidly wrong they are. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/6 "2023-09-11T23:34:23Z")
According to Memory Alpha, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn’t. > **[Impulse engine](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Impulse_engine)** > > An impulse engine or impulse drive was a common propulsion system used on starships used to create impulse power in order to achieve impulse speeds. In Federation starships, the impulse drive was essentially an augmented fusion rocket, usually... > [@](#): > > Dialogue from several episodes, including “Where No Man Has Gone Before” and “The Doomsday Machine”, suggests that the impulse drive could be used in some manner to propel a ship at faster than light speeds, albeit with a lower maximum speed and a higher rate of fuel consumption than the main warp drive. This could possibly make the relationship between impulse and warp drive analogous to the relationship between electric motors and internal combustion engines in a modern hybrid car. It would also explain Scott’s remark in “Balance of Terror” about the Romulans’ power being “simple impulse” and allow it to be reconciled with their clear capacity for interstellar travel… > > …According to Jo’Bril in the episode “Suspicions”, “I am one million kilometres from the star’s corona. Proceeding at three quarters impulse. I should reach it in approximately three minutes.” That is approximately 12,400,000 miles per hour or 5,543 kilometers per second (~1.8% the speed of light). I think it’s safest to just say that starships travel at the speed of plot and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/7 "2023-09-11T23:37:27Z")
In Star Trek physics, the “c” doesn’t stand for “consistency”. 🙂 In some dialog (TOS if I remember…), it seems that warp ships accelerate to (just under) c and then jump over to warp speed. That really doesn’t make sense, and causes other problems, such as slipping slipping slipping into the future, relativistically, so they forgot they ever said it. If high impulse was nearing the speed of light, as noted there would be relativistic effects. Which are never mentioned. (Though the original handwavium descriptions of Star Dates had some techno lingo saying they varied due to this very effect.) Having the capability of running at high percentages of c does give you a “lifeboat” way to get home if your warp drive is unrepairable, Of course, you’ll be hundreds of years in the future, but there’s probably a 25th century Department of Temporal Dislocations to get you a new house and re-acclimated to society. ---
**Author:** ![Ponderoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponderoid/32/19221_2.png) [@Ponderoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponderoid)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/8 "2023-09-11T23:43:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I think it’s safest to just say that starships travel at the speed of plot and leave it at that. Yeah, I understand that’s the ultimate answer any time anybody questions why some sci-fi thing doesn’t obey real world physics. I know Trek employed some well known SF authors, who at least some of them had the background to understand the problems. I’m curious if any of them attempted to state outright “this tech can’t do that” at any point. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/9 "2023-09-12T00:21:36Z")
> [@Ponderoid](#): > > I know Trek employed some well known SF authors, who at least some of them had the background to understand the problems. Can you name one? An established hard SF author who told Start Trek that “FTL doesn’t work that way.” I know of one sorta-hard-SF author (Larry Niven) who never addressed the issue, since his own FTL rules (though mostly internally consistent) were nothing like any incarnation of Star Trek’s “warp”. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/10 "2023-09-12T00:35:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I think it’s safest to just say that starships travel at the speed of plot and leave it at that. I think they refused to give definitive answers for speeds in Babylon 5 to avoid nitpicking. The truth is warp always seemed to be at the speed of plot. In TNG in particular, it didn’t seem to take the Enterprise very long to get back to Earth when necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/11 "2023-09-12T00:40:05Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > In TNG in particular, it didn’t seem to take the Enterprise very long to get back to Earth when necessary. And then there’s the Abrams-verse, where warping from Earth to Vulcan takes a couple seconds - a conceit of his that carried over into his Star Wars films, because the man seems to have absolutely no idea how big space is. At the risk of going off-topic, if hyperspace jumps worked the same way in _A New Hope_ that they do in _The Rise of Skywalker_, Luke and company would have beat the Death Star to Alderaan, then died when it blew up the planet. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/12 "2023-09-12T01:03:59Z")
Yeah, I pretty much gave up on the Abrams Star Treks, when they showed Khan instantly beaming from Earth to the Klingon home world. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/13 "2023-09-12T01:13:11Z")
Well, that was due to technology from the post-TNG future. ---
**Author:** ![Ponderoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponderoid/32/19221_2.png) [@Ponderoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponderoid)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/14 "2023-09-12T01:14:43Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Can you name one? An established hard SF author who told Start Trek that “FTL doesn’t work that way.” I’d have to look up a definitive list of script authors, but I know off the top of my head they include Theodore Sturgeon and Harlan Ellison. I remember seeing other big name authors but their names aren’t coming to mind at the moment. I’m making an educated guess that at least some of the writers knew the basics of relativity, even though they ignored it when writing their scripts. I am not asking about any behind-the-scenes discussions that might have happened. I’m asking about what _could_ have made it into a script, where a writer decided to try to head off all the true nerds in the audience by explicitly side-step-stepping the issue of travel less than light speed, by having a character or some in-universe reference say: “no, these ships just can’t do that thing.” That is the totality of my question, did that ever happen on screen, or in a novel that was declared canon? ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/15 "2023-09-12T01:29:00Z")
In the _Star Trek: Destiny_ novel “Gods of Night”, the NX-class USS _Columbia_ is attacked by the Romulans and, while they defeat them, they’re left stranded far away from anyone and anything, and very little on the ship is working, let alone the warp drive. Captain Hernandez chooses to set a course for the nearest M-class planet, so that they can restock on food and water. But without warp drive, they take the impulse drive to within one-thousandth of _c_, causing severe time-dilation effects. 63 days on the _Columbia_ turned into 12 years of passage in the real world. > **[Gods of Night](https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Gods_of_Night)** > > Gods of Night is the first novel in the crossover trilogy Star Trek: Destiny. The book features the crews of the USS Enterprise-E from Star Trek: The Next Generation, the USS Titan of Star Trek: Titan, and introduces the USS Aventine, commanded by... ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/16 "2023-09-12T02:06:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And then there’s the Abrams-verse, where warping from Earth to Vulcan takes a couple seconds - a conceit of his that carried over into his Star Wars films, because the man seems to have absolutely no idea how big space is. And also where you can get knocked out of warp early, and still be so close to your destination that you can resolve details on the planet with the naked eye. Man, it’s a good thing they got knocked out of warp, or they’d have missed it! ---
**Author:** ![Ponderoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponderoid/32/19221_2.png) [@Ponderoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponderoid)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/17 "2023-09-12T02:17:57Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > 63 days on the _Columbia_ turned into 12 years of passage in the real world. Cool, so at least one Trek writer said “You _can_ do that thing.” Nice. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/18 "2023-09-12T02:32:21Z")
It’s a good trilogy. You should read it. Of course, the thought that the crew was missing 12 years with their families caused _lots_ of problems with crew morale. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/19 "2023-09-12T04:13:51Z")
In “The Naked Time,” one of the first TOS episodes filmed, the _Enterprise_ traveled “faster than is possible in normal space” after they mixed matter and anti-matter cold, due to a “theoretical relationship between anti-matter and time.” This allowed them to go three days back into the past, though the arrow of time inside the ship wasn’t affected at all. Viola, QED! All you need to do to go faster than the speed of light and travel in time is to mix matter and anti-matter cold! ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/20 "2023-09-12T05:54:11Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > All you need to do to go faster than the speed of light and travel in time is to mix matter and anti-matter cold! It is very cold…in spaaaccce. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956.md?page=2)