# Pushing c in Star Trek **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, star-trek-paramount\ **Created:** [September 11, 2023, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956 "2023-09-11T22:54:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/41 "2023-09-12T15:03:37Z")
I remember reading something, probably a very old Star Trek RPG manual (pre-TNG), that said the warp engines create the warp field, but the impulse engines still provide the propulsion when traveling warp speeds. Due to the nature of the warp field, lack of propulsion means the ship slows and stops, unlike what would happen in normal space. My feeling has always been that the warp field, warp bubble, etc. is the escape hatch from known physics. Once you’re in a warp bubble you can do things like exceed the speed of light with no relativistic effects, detect light that can’t have reached you yet, and all the fun things that are needed to make a space opera work. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/42 "2023-09-12T15:07:37Z")
Star Trek has used warp fields for things other than moving through space. In one episode they extend the warp field over an asteroid so its mass changes (or something) so they can push it away from a collision course to a planet. In another Wesley Crusher makes a static warp bubble which traps him mom in an alternate reality. I may be misremembering some details but, the point is, they used warp fields in different ways. It’s an easy black box for the writers to draw from and make stories up. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/43 "2023-09-12T15:17:35Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > What I want to know is, how do the “inertia dampeners” function at sublight speeds? And how come the crew isn’t reduced to strawberry jam when they go “offline,” as happens often in _ **Voyager** _? _fan wanking_ - The Inertial Dampers have many levels of redundancy and are designed to fail “gracefully” with a large factor of safety. “Offline” is more of a warning that they are working at a non-nominal level and thus objects and personnel may by subject to floating or or being thrown at a force that could cause injury, but not smeared on the nearest bulkhead. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/44 "2023-09-12T15:20:05Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Yeah. We see this a lot when they are in the Sol System (Earth). A Borg cube flies by the “Mars Defense Perimeter,” blasts some little ships then flies to earth in a few more minutes. All seemingly at sub-light speed. I was just looking at a transcript of the SNW episode with the Gorn and the brown dwarf (because I remember it covered going a specific distance at Impulse). In this case they traveled 200 million km at “full Impulse”, which–if 1.0 Impulse was c or arbitrarily close–would give a transit time of around 10 minutes. That timeframe was plausible for the plot, but it _is_ an example of how bad they are at distances: there just happened to be a brown dwarf and black hole closer to the planet than Mars is from Earth. You do _not_ watch _Star Trek_ for the science, because the science is barely better than in _Lost in Space_. > **[s01e04 - Momento Mori - Star Trek: Strange New Worlds Transcripts - TvT](https://tvshowtranscripts.ourboard.org/viewtopic.php?f=1328&t=53369)** > > Pike must find unconventional Starfleet methods to deal with a malevolent force that attacks the Enterprise.Previously on "Star Trek: Strange New ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/45 "2023-09-12T15:23:07Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Star Trek has used warp fields for things other than moving through space Yep, warp fields are a get out of physics free card. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/46 "2023-09-12T15:29:57Z")
BTW, if Earth had a black hole of the smallest mass yet discovered (3.3 suns) 200 million km away, it would have more gravitational influence on the Earth than the sun does. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/47 "2023-09-12T15:38:18Z")
How big is space? If the Enterprise D was the size of a grain of rice, Vulcan would be as far as Neptune and there’d be absolutely nothing between them. Tell writers that fact. Of course, you’d have to explain to them how incredibly far away that is…maybe by using grapes and a football field. Nothing for light years in any direction except light years. The chances of running into anything, be it a rogue comet, forgotten space probe or sleeper ship, 1937 Ford pickup, are essentially zero. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/48 "2023-09-12T15:49:26Z")
You left out Tesla roadster! ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/49 "2023-09-12T16:13:05Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > You left out Tesla roadster! I did! I wonder where it is now, and what it looks like. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/50 "2023-09-12T20:49:55Z")
Well, I might as well learn here: How _are_ people traveling at light speed or much faster in Star Trek without dying or going back in time every single time? I just assumed “wizards did it” with wizards just being the technology they had. No real explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/51 "2023-09-12T21:03:23Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I just assumed “wizards did it” with wizards just being the technology they had. Well, it is somewhat scientific wizards! 🙂 It’s not like Star trek is the only fictional adventure that has FTL travel. You just have to go with the thought that “there are things we don’t understand yet”. A warp engine creates a “subspace bubble” that the ship uses to exceed c. The ship is not in normal space, therefore, the laws of physics that we understand do not apply. “Subspace radio” uses a similar process for FTL communications. But the conceit is, in The Future we’ve managed to understand more of the universe, and the limitations of our current understanding of physics are just like comparing Newtonian laws of motion to relativity. If Newton said that gravity can’t bend light, he’d be showing the ignorance of his time. To a denizen of the 24th century, have a 20th century physicist say “you can’t travel FTL!” would be equally as ignorant. We just don’t know enough yet. If someone doesn’t like that, then I submit sci fi is not for them. eta: I specifically didn’t add a detailed explanation of how warp drive “works” in the ST universe, because if I could accurately describe how it worked so it didn’t clash with modern physics, I’d invent it. And leave this planet. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/52 "2023-09-12T21:15:31Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > eta: I specifically didn’t add a detailed explanation of how warp drive “works” in the ST universe, because if I could accurately describe how it worked so it didn’t clash with modern physics, I’d invent it. Hey, Alcubierre didn’t let that stop him! ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2023, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/53 "2023-09-13T00:44:32Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > > [@terentii](#): > > > > unequivocally that warp 1 is the speed of light. ⁢ > > Which anybody with a functioning brain\* just _has_ to disregard that. Case in point, The Galileo 7. If the Enterprise was warping away form the plantet at c\*\*, then their sensors would show _no change_ on the planet. They couldn’t see the G7 dump its fuel and ignite it, because they were moving away at the same speed the image was hitting them. > > Also, you’d never get anywhere! Four years to reach the nearest star, what(?) twelve to reach Vulcan. > > Which writer said it?: an interstellar ship’s maximum speed is it’s only speed. Why go slower? > > \*Hollywood writers exempted > > \*\* also disregarding the reality that you can’t in real space, so just figure “warp speed of light” is different than “normal space speed of light” ⁢ The usual explanation for Warp 1 being too slow is that Kirk only went at Warp 1 while within the solar system, but then sped up later. Though, yes, that’s the “lack of care” I mentioned earlier. And they definitely have FTL sensors, so I always presumed the visuals on screen were augmented for our convenience, converting the sensor data to visuals whenever light alone is insufficient. Warp 1 is **supposed** to be c, and Impulse is **supposed** to be strictly less than that. And they don’t travel at maximum speed very often because that is less energy efficient and creates more wear and tear. (I believe there’s an episode where Scotty is worried the ship will fall apart because it’s going too fast for too long, and they can’t stop it.) But, sure, it is weird that there’s not some goldilocks speed they would use as the default. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2023, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/54 "2023-09-13T00:57:24Z")
I was going to cite this very example. As for the mention of other ships looking for them, well, this was from Starfleet’s early days an they didn’t have a lot of ships, at least not really fast ones. (Really fast being a relative term.) ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2023, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/55 "2023-09-13T01:33:08Z")
Right; this was an NX-class ship. Pre-Federation, even. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2023, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/56 "2023-09-13T01:46:56Z")
And don’t get me started on the stupidity of the solar sail spacecraft on _DS9_. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2023, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/57 "2023-09-13T02:38:08Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > …it is weird that there’s not some goldilocks speed they would use as the default. I _think_ warp 7 was “cruising speed” for the ST:TNG Enterprise. IIRC Voyager could cruise faster than that due to its configurable warp nacelles. The notion of wearing out engines and being fuel inefficient is definitely borrowed from current navies. Most large naval ships can’t run at top speed indefinitely. Usually hugely fuel inefficient and, even if the engine doesn’t burn out, it will need to be repaired sooner than later for doing that which is not ideal. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2023, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/58 "2023-09-13T05:22:43Z")
The setting of TNG had a “speed limit” for warp as it was found that continuous high speed warp travel was damaging the universe. Not that ships couldn’t go past it if the situation warranted, but that was one more reason that there was a cruising speed. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2023, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/59 "2023-09-13T05:32:16Z")
I remember that episode. Then in the next few episodes they tried to adhere to it. Then they were given special dispensation to exceed the limit for “emergency” reasons. Then they just seemed to quietly drop it. Too limiting for the writers I guess (I dunno). That limit did not last long. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2023, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956/60 "2023-09-13T07:09:53Z")
Add to the confusion that in the TNG finale, the Pasteur goes to Warp 13 during the scene set in the future, implying that the warp scale was recalibrated again at some point. Also, there’s a bit in Voyager where the ship uses a stolen Borg transwarp device to jump 20,000 light years at once, which puts then “15 years closer to home”. Of course, this doesn’t fit with the size of the Federation as given in First Contact (8,000 ly), otherwise it would take nearly a decade to get from one end of Federation space to the other. This is what nearly 60 years of continuity gets you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-c-in-star-trek/989956.md?page=4)