# Pushing for total metric in the US: is a foolish consistency the hobgoblin of a small mind? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 5, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017 "2015-08-05T00:02:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/61 "2015-08-05T21:48:22Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > Perhaps, but the $5 kitchen scales rarely produce the same result twice in a row. And who wants to buy a $100 scale for their home kitchen that still needs to be periodically tested and recalibrated for precise results? > > Sure, if you’re a professional chef or running a commercial operation, that’s what you’ve got to do. But for most home chefs, that kind of hassle would be the perfect excuse to just go to the bakery. :rolleyes: In my country, digital kitchen scales that are accurate enough to produce reliable results can be had for far less than $100 and are even available to home cooks. Testing and recalibration costs do not threaten to bankrupt me. These threads always devolve into arguments that sound like they came from infomercials. “Your Celsius degrees aren’t granular enough! You can’t say the weather will be in the twenties!”. No, but we can say the forecast is 25 degrees today. Isn’t that enough information? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/62 "2015-08-05T21:49:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > 1: Nobody, not even most Americans, knows the conversion factors for the American system. Sure, we all know how many inches there are in a foot and how many ounces in a pound, but what’s an acre? If I have a piece of land that’s so many feet on one side and so many feet on the other, how many acres is that? If I have a fish tank that’s 18 inches by 24 inches by 48 inches, how many gallons will it hold? who cares, since aquariums are usually sold by gallons capacity anyway? > [@](#): > > And even when you do know the conversion factors, it makes calculations needlessly hard: If an amusement park ride requires a minimum of 56 inches, and my kid is 4’9", should we bother going to the park, or wait until next year? I challenge you to find someone in this country who doesn’t know 1 foot=12 inches. > [@](#): > > 2: The American system of units is incoherent. Automobile mechanics, for instance, will learn that the power of an engine is equal to its RPMs times its torque times some magic number that you just have to memorize. no, that’s from the world of dynamometers which _measure_ torque and rotational speed. They _calculate_ horsepower. Power is simply the derivative of Work with respect to time. Besides, why aren’t you bitching at DIN for holding onto PS (a.k.a. “metric horsepower?”) > [@](#): > > Except that, in any sane system of units, power is just rotational speed times torque. These magic numbers are all over the place in the American system, and they’re never necessary. And don’t even get me started on pounds, stones, poundals, and pounds. we don’t use “stone,” but the UK still does. I challenge you to find someone in the US who even knows what a poundal is. > [@](#): > > 3: The American system of units is nonstandard. Units are useless if they’re not standardized, yes it is. “Standardized” means the units and conversion factors are known. It’s simply a different set of standards from SI units. > [@](#): > > and while America might be the most powerful and important nation in the world, we’re not more powerful and important than the rest of the world combined, and international trade and other interactions are more important than ever. butthurt detected. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/63 "2015-08-05T22:22:46Z")
> [@Eliahna](#): > > These threads always devolve into arguments that sound like they came from infomercials. “Your Celsius degrees aren’t granular enough! You can’t say the weather will be in the twenties!”. No, but we can say the forecast is 25 degrees today. Isn’t that enough information? I agree about digital scales not being a big deal to buy. I have one I use regularly, mostly for making herbal preparations (I’m not referring to pot!). I agree that the argument about F and C comes down to personal preference and minor things like the “user interface,” so to speak. But that’s really the _point_: there was no good scientific or usability reason to switch from F to C in the first place. For everything else metric, there was, though some of the units could have been designed a bit better or perhaps made allowances for daily usability (a meter about the size of a foot would have been better, proportion of earth’s radius or whatever it was be damned). Similarly, I would _not_ recommend countries now used to C to switch back to F. Any advantage in usability would not justify the switching costs. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/64 "2015-08-05T22:25:30Z")
> [@](#): > > who cares, since aquariums are usually sold by gallons capacity anyway? Someone who has an old aquarium lying around that doesn’t still have the store label on it. > [@](#): > > I challenge you to find someone in this country who doesn’t know 1 foot=12 inches. Why would you challenge me to that, given that I said in the very spot you quoted that that conversion is known? > [@](#): > > we don’t use “stone,” but the UK still does. I challenge you to find someone in the US who even knows what a poundal is. My apologies; I meant to say “slug”, there, not “stone”. And if you don’t know slugs _or_ poundals, then you’re missing a major chunk of the unit system. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/65 "2015-08-05T22:32:12Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I agree that the argument about F and C comes down to personal preference and minor things like the “user interface,” so to speak. But that’s really the _point_: there was no good scientific or usability reason to switch from F to C in the first place. For everything else metric, there was, though some of the units could have been designed a bit better or perhaps made allowances for daily usability (a meter about the size of a foot would have been better, proportion of earth’s radius or whatever it was be damned). > > Similarly, I would _not_ recommend countries now used to C to switch back to F. Any advantage in usability would not justify the switching costs. The scientific reason to switch from F to C is so that your intuitive temperature measurements are in the same units as your scientific measurements, _i.e._ 1 °C = 1 K. It’s not an insurmountable disadvantage when they don’t, but having that intuition does make a difference in some settings. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/66 "2015-08-05T22:59:13Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > The scientific reason to switch from F to C is so that your intuitive temperature measurements are in the same units as your scientific measurements, _i.e._ 1 °C = 1 K. It’s not an insurmountable disadvantage when they don’t, but having that intuition does make a difference in some settings. Celsius came first: **In 1848, Lord Kelvin wrote in his paper, On an Absolute Thermometric Scale, of the need for a scale whereby “infinite cold” (absolute zero) was the scale’s null point, and which used the degree Celsius for its unit increment.** > **[Kelvin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin)** > > The kelvin (symbol: K) is the base unit for temperature in the International System of Units (SI). The Kelvin scale is an absolute temperature scale that starts at the lowest possible temperature (absolute zero), taken to be 0 K. By definition, the Celsius scale (symbol °C) and the Kelvin scale have the exact same magnitude; that is, a rise of 1 K is equal to a rise of 1 °C and vice versa, and any temperature in degrees Celsius can be converted to kelvin by adding 273.15. > The 19th century Bri... There was never any good reason for Celsius to replace F, and Kelvin could just as easily based his scale on the F degree (I’m not saying he should have, however; he should have gone with whatever was predominant at the time). In any case, there’s no reason for the US to switch to C now for weather and cooking purposes other than the need for “foolish consistency.” ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/67 "2015-08-06T00:16:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Why would you challenge me to that, given that I said in the very spot you quoted that that conversion is known? because I don’t consider “48+9” to be “needlessly difficult.” ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/68 "2015-08-06T02:52:33Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > It seemed like you were reaching with that. Still seems that way to me. I don’t think it’s reaching. You’re asking why I’m proposing that some government forced metrification effort would be a first amendment violation. The first amendment (as a reminder for non-Americans, not you specifically) protects our freedom of speech. If the government were to prohibit me from publishing a cookbook using US Customary Units, that would be an abridgment of my rights. Similarly if I met FTC/FDA labelling requirements in grams (or whatever), it would be an abridgment of my rights to prohibit me from also adding the customary measurements to my label. If I own a bank with a big temperature sign outside, it would be a violating of my rights to force me to display that sign in centigrade. There’s not really a legal basis to legislate forced use of the metric system, is my meaning, all the way to the Constitutional level. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/69 "2015-08-06T02:59:21Z")
Maybe that’s your theory. I don’t buy it. The government can, and does, regulate a standard of measures. It would be interesting, though, to see it end up in court. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/70 "2015-08-06T04:38:17Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Maybe that’s your theory. I don’t buy it. The government can, and does, regulate a standard of measures. It would be interesting, though, to see it end up in court. Well, yeah, sure they do. They might tell Coca Cola that they have to label individual cans in ml. Now we get 354 ml cans to comply with the government. But you know, people want 12 oz cans, so Coca Cola continues to write “12 fl. oz” on their cans. There’s no much the government can do to prevent it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/71 "2015-08-06T06:29:19Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The imperial system is based on humanity, as such for all it’s quirkiness, makes sense for us and has a ‘at home’ feel to it. There is also lots of culture and history behind it so it ties us to our past. So all and all we are preserving the heritage of all of us by using it, but it did cost us a martian probe, I’m sure the metric nations will one day realize this and buy us a new probe to replace that one. We’d also be preserving the heritage of all of us by keeping slaves, treating women as property, treating disease by exorcism, and dying young. (I’m not saying the imperial system is as bad as any of those things, of course - just that ‘preserving heritage’ is not in and of itself necessarily a good thing). ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/72 "2015-08-06T06:50:07Z")
I pretty regularly need to do quick and dirty volume calculations. So it would have to be metric all the way for me, there is no way in hell I want to try and work out the volume of 56 boxes that are each 2’6" by 2’2" by 2’8", on the other hand, while I need a calculator 56 boxes each 58cm by 50cm by 62cm is rather easier - and if no calculator is handy I can still get close by mental arithmetic. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/73 "2015-08-06T07:04:37Z")
I could live with either but I do get annoyed when some companies (in my case motorcycles) mix and match. On my 04 Harley the majority of the bike is SAE but a lot of the trim and some of the add-on parts are metric. A friends Ducati is just the opposite. I usually write it off as an evil plot by Snap-On and Craftsman to suck more dollars out of my pocket but -------- ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/74 "2015-08-06T07:16:40Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > For what it’s worth, almost all American kids DO use the metric system in their school science classes. In lab, we measure out water in milliliters, not in ounces. We measure out chemicals in grams, not pounds. > > We DO use metric where it matters. Is it really that important whether we sell milk by the quart rather than the liter, or measure football fields in yards? Nope, but the fact that you have to switch to a different system you’re unfamiliar with when in science class is in itself a disadvantage. You can argue that the advantage of using the metric system isn’t worth the pain of switching to units unfamiliar to you personnally, but you can’t argue that the American system is as convenient as the metric system. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/75 "2015-08-06T07:37:38Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > “it will be in the 20s” today in C doesn’t have a lot of meaning because that overlaps three different comfort levels. But your weather does not always remains within a neat window of temperature that never overlaps a multiple of ten. So as often as not you are going to have to say something like “high sixties to low seventies” which is no easier or neater than saying “19-22 Celsius”. I grew up with both scales and find each perfectly easy to comprehend. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/76 "2015-08-06T07:49:54Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Similarly, I would _not_ recommend countries now used to C to switch back to F. Any advantage in usability would not justify the switching costs. Not sure how to put this but there is ZERO advantage in usability of F vs C. This is what I mentioned earlier about ignorant arguments. Only an argument based on the ignorance of the experience of being raised in a different scale would conclude that F is better than C in any way. Sure it has higher usability for people raised with F but it has zero to negative advantage for people raised in C (e.g. they could claim “unnecessary granularity”) I find it sad that such arguments are being made on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/77 "2015-08-06T12:09:43Z")
> [@ctnguy](#): > > If you have measuring spoons and jugs marked in millilitres, they work just as well as tablespoons and cups. Or just use cups and tablespoons, these aren’t imperial-only measures, they’re the same for metric as for imperial (speaking as someone who uses an actual teacup for ‘cup’ when I bake. That that particular one’s actually 250ml is a happy coincidence. It could as easily be the US or UK cup and I doubt my baking would suffer. Only the Japanese cup is too far off (200ml)) ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/78 "2015-08-06T12:12:13Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Nope, but the fact that you have to switch to a different system you’re unfamiliar with when in science class is in itself a disadvantage. Not MUCH of a disadvantage. Took me all of 5 minutes to get used to it. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/79 "2015-08-06T13:35:54Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > I could live with either but I do get annoyed when some companies (in my case motorcycles) mix and match. On my 04 Harley the majority of the bike is SAE but a lot of the trim and some of the add-on parts are metric. A friends Ducati is just the opposite. I usually write it off as an evil plot by Snap-On and Craftsman to suck more dollars out of my pocket but -------- Same here. I hated having to buy two adjustable wrenches. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017/80 "2015-08-06T14:40:09Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I think 18-19° both fit into “pleasant”–matter of opinion. He’s labeling the middle of the zones, not the beginnings. Either way works fine. 0C is literally freezing. You get no points there. -10C is really damn cold, if you want to add that. There’s really little benefit to either C or F. I find C degrees small enough (I rarely bump my thermostat by 1F) and I like 0 = freezing. It’s great when it’s -40. No letter required. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pushing-for-total-metric-in-the-us-is-a-foolish-consistency-the-hobgoblin-of-a-small-mind/727017.md?page=5)