# Pussy Riot will topple Putin; mark my words! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826 "2012-08-08T04:45:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/41 "2012-08-08T16:58:56Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > In part, yes. > > All three of the women charged allegedly appear in the video as performers. This brings up the question of how they were identified by witnesses: Regardless of the witnesses, they themselves admit to being the performers. So as ludicrous as the identification of calf muscles is, it’s cumulative: there’s no need for any other witnesses to identify them; they admit their presence. > [@](#): > > The other performer and the camera person have never, to my knowledge, been identified or charged. So? > [@](#): > > However, all three women do admit to being one of the performers. The thing is, they say that what they did was a political protest, while, as noted in the OP: > Do you think they incited religious hatred with their actions, or intended to do so? Well, frankly, I’m not even sure I agree that “inciting religious hatred” should be a crime. As far as I’m concerned, they are free to stand on the corner and advise all persons that pass that, in their opinion, the Patriarch Kirill and President Putin are both degenerate idiots who would best serve society by digging septic tank ditches, and the Orthodox Church is spitting in the eye of Jesus by endorsing Putin. So what I’m pointing out here is that while I applaud their interest in free speech, stealing someone else’s pulpit to make your speech effective is not something we, the bastion of the free speech world, generally permit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/42 "2012-08-08T17:01:18Z")
As **Ravenman** notes, it’s academic. In all probability they’d have been locked up for doing it outside, too. You also kind of glossed over the idea that the church would have to press charges; can you imagine a major American denomination pressing charges for an act of this sort that did not result in, say, property damage? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/43 "2012-08-08T17:02:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Is it clearly marked as such? Would somebody passing beyond the altar rail be on notice that they were trespassing? That’s certainly an argument someone could make. From the description of the incident, though, they did not immediately leave the area after being ordered to do so, so even if their initial entry was defensible as ignorance, their refusal to depart was not. But I suspect they would readily admit they knew they were not authorized to be where they were. Certainly if I were to discover they, in good faith, believed they had a legal right to be where they were it would change my mind. Do you think they believed that? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/44 "2012-08-08T17:03:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > As **Ravenman** notes, it’s academic. In all probability they’d have been locked up for doing it outside, too. Right – and if they had, it would be absolutely obvious how corrupt and censorious the Russian system is. Now, in contrast, they can hide behind religious respect. > [@](#): > > You also kind of glossed over the idea that the church would have to press charges; can you imagine a major American denomination pressing charges for an act of this sort that did not result in, say, property damage? No, I think most churches would practice what they preach with respect to forgiveness, assuming there was nothing more profane that happened – if there had been some attempt to desecrate the Host, for example, Catholics would not be as forgiving. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/45 "2012-08-08T17:36:21Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Is it clearly marked as such? Would somebody passing beyond the altar rail be on notice that they were trespassing? In all the Eastern Orthodox churches I have been in in the area beyond the altar rail (the rail itself is often a rather substantial barrier) is clearly different from the rest of the church in such a way that even someone with severe Asperger’s syndrome and completely unfamiliar with Christianity would be able to deduce that it is no go zone. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/46 "2012-08-08T17:51:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, I think most churches would practice what they preach with respect to forgiveness, assuming there was nothing more profane that happened – if there had been some attempt to desecrate the Host, for example, Catholics would not be as forgiving. Because they are females of menustrating age depending on where exactly they were at or around the altar, their presence would be considered in the eyes of traditional devote, Eastern Orthodox an act or an attempted act of desecration. Russian Orthodox are about as welcoming as Hasidic Jews when it comes to women in sacred places. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/47 "2012-08-08T18:09:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s certainly an argument someone could make. From the description of the incident, though, they did not immediately leave the area after being ordered to do so, so even if their initial entry was defensible as ignorance, their refusal to depart was not. Not sure about that. The whole performance lasted 40 seconds. That’s pretty immediate. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/48 "2012-08-08T18:50:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not sure about that. The whole performance lasted 40 seconds. That’s pretty immediate. I wouldn’t characterize it that way. There’s some big burly security dude who tried to grab them and take them away right at the beginning of the video clip. They managed to elude the world’s worst bouncer (guess that’s why he’s working in a church and not a bar) and continue the performance. Still, I think **Bricker** ’s framing of this issue as generally a matter of trespass and criminal law doesn’t present a complete picture. This is clearly a crime of civil disobedience. It isn’t like our country’s own history with the civil rights movement and other political protests were always carried out with the support of the government and never infringing on anyone else’s property or sense of propriety. This isn’t the shot that was heard around the world, but these girls deserve a lot more slack than the serious charges they are faced with. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/49 "2012-08-08T19:01:39Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I’m not sure that what they did would necessarily be a crime here, tho. In my experience, a church is open and available when not in service. I’ve walked around and all over churches, including the altar area, without being hassled or getting dirty looks or anything. “Here” being the key word. The law might be different in Russia. Not to mention which church it was – I’m guessing there would be a difference between your average parish church and St. Basil’s. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/50 "2012-08-08T19:23:48Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > Clearly the awesome political power of the punk rock and metal communities. I wish we had that kind of power. Considering it took a month to get Randy Blythe out on bail, I’m not sure Pussy Riot will have much of an impact. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/51 "2012-08-08T20:16:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In Virginia, trespass is a class one misdemeanor, punishable by up to a year in jail and a fine of $2,500. Conspiring with others to trespass is a Class 3 misdemeanor. > > In Virginia, inmates in jail typically work: trash pickup, etc. > > I agree the Russian sentence might end up being harsher (have they actually been sentenced?) but I’m not so sure about the 5 bajillion fucktons. > > See, my issue is that even here, in the land of the free, you don’t get to use someone else’s pulpit – in this case, literally a pulpit – to exercise your right to free speech. If their impromptu performance had been on the street outside the church as parishoners left, my discomfort with the authorities would be complete. > > But my admiration of the girls’ willingness to protest is tempered by the understanding that they infringed on someone else’s rights to do so. And the knowledge that the same act in this country could result in a year or so of jail time. Yeah; I was just engaging in a bit of hyperbole, and I realistically expect a trespassing bust like this to end up with a fine/community service, barring prior convictions. I don’t know whether Russian courts generally sentence at the harsher end or not; it does look as if the sentence could realistically be twice as harsh. Yeah, they went overboard, but I guess when you have a tradition of getting gigged for even the mildest protest, the matter of degree might not be the point for them. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/52 "2012-08-08T20:31:00Z")
ETA: I also have no idea whether the group could have been bailed out and that the jail thing is an extension of their protest. I know that they are doing a lot of mugging for cameras and[URL=“[Nadezhda Tolokonnikova | ITAR-TASS: MOSCOW, RUSSIA. JULY 30,… | Flickr](http://www.flickr.com/photos/aleshru/7718342398/lightbox/)”] Nadezhda seems to have access to makeup/hair styling/clothes so it doesn’t appear they’re exactly breaking rocks in the hot sun. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/53 "2012-08-08T23:21:21Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not sure about that. The whole performance lasted 40 seconds. That’s pretty immediate. Did you see the video? They clearly dodge and resist the attempt to remove them. There’s no question in my mind, watching the video, that they were aware they were not supposed to be there. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/54 "2012-08-09T16:46:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, a hypothetical Russian and I have a conversation: > > […] > > HR: So what is problem? The problems are for instance : -That when the power isn’t legitimate, using unlawful venues to protest against it becomes legitimate. Especially when this venue is well known for supporting said illegitimate power. -That “disrupting a service” doesn’t carry a sentence of three years in a labour camp in democratic countries I’m familiar with. -That from many reports made, the trial is conducted in ways that aren’t conductive to a proper defense. I see your point but frankly you could make exactly the same point, using the same words, about a trial taking place in North Korea. Which means IMHO that this point demonstrates nothing. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/55 "2012-08-09T17:06:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Correction noted. NOT during a service. > > And please don’t take my comments here as a general defense of the Russian joke that pretends to be a fair trial. But by their own admission, the girls did something that, if committed here, would be a crime. The difference being that "here\* is a true democracy. > [@](#): > > They can complain about harsh sentences, I suppose, if they get a harsh sentence. But unless I’m missing something – and Lord knows I may be – the underlying act was civil disobedience. A _sine qua non_ of civil disobedience is the willingness to accept punishment for your willful disregard of the law you believe is wrong, is it not? I never bought into this civil disobedience/willingness to accept punishment theory. You don’t have to be fair with the unfair. There’s zero evidence that they buy into it, either. They probably believe, like me, that their action was legitimate and that if they could get away with it, it would be for the better. It might be that in some circumstances, going through the trial and sentence could be more efficient (by raising public awareness), but if it isn’t, or if it is but you don’t have the balls for that, staying free to give it a go the next day is perfectly fine. And being willing to “accept the punishment” is never needed IMO. It just happens that the punishment is an unfortunate side-effect of raising awareness. To reuse an argument from **Der Trihs** : would you deliver Anne Frank to the Gestapo? If you wouldn’t, you agree with the general principle and we’re just arguing about the details. Maybe Putin’s regime isn’t bad enough for you to apply it in this case, but it’s definitely bad enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/56 "2012-08-09T17:12:30Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > Yeah, Putin’s regime was behind a [colossal fuckup](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis) of a hostage raid that killed 170 civilians, . He also restarted a war for no sensible reason, which resulted in way, way more than 170 civilian deaths. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/57 "2012-08-09T17:14:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I wouldn’t characterize it that way. There’s some big burly security dude who tried to grab them and take them away right at the beginning of the video clip. They managed to elude the world’s worst bouncer (guess that’s why he’s working in a church and not a bar) and continue the performance. > > Still, I think **Bricker** ’s framing of this issue as generally a matter of trespass and criminal law doesn’t present a complete picture. This is clearly a crime of civil disobedience. It isn’t like our country’s own history with the civil rights movement and other political protests were always carried out with the support of the government and never infringing on anyone else’s property or sense of propriety. This isn’t the shot that was heard around the world, but these girls deserve a lot more slack than the serious charges they are faced with. > [@Bricker](#): > > Did you see the video? > > They clearly dodge and resist the attempt to remove them. There’s no question in my mind, watching the video, that they were aware they were not supposed to be there. I didn’t see the video. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/58 "2012-08-09T18:18:58Z")
They deserve to be jailed for that song, even if they had performed it in a studio. I don`t see how it can be classified as music. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/59 "2012-08-09T22:00:19Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > They deserve to be jailed for that song, even if they had performed it in a studio. I don`t see how it can be classified as music. So would it be better or worse if they played it on your lawn? Would the sound give you the diabeetus? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/60 "2012-08-17T17:47:14Z")
[ > [@](#): > > Judge Marina Syrova said in her verdict that the band members “committed hooliganism driven by religious hatred.” She rejected the women’s arguments that they were protesting the Orthodox Church’s support for Putin and didn’t intend to offend religious believers. ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU\_RUSSIA\_PUNKS\_VS\_PUTIN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-08-17-12-31-33](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_RUSSIA_PUNKS_VS_PUTIN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-08-17-12-31-33)) There were protests outside the courtroom, of course, and police used the opportunity to round up a few opposition leaders. > [@](#): > > “Putin has doomed himself to another year and a half of international shame and humiliation,” said Boris Akunin, one of Russia’s most popular authors, who was among the Pussy Riot supporters outside the courthouse. “The whole thing is bad because it’s yet another step toward the escalation of tensions within society. And the government is absolutely to blame.” > > Defense lawyers said they would appeal the verdict, although they had little hope that it would be overturned. “Under no circumstances will the girls ask for a pardon (from Putin),” said Mark Feygin. “They will not beg and humiliate themselves before such a bastard.” > > Outside the court, police rounded up a few dozen protesters, including former world chess champion Garry Kasparov, who is a leading opposition activist, and leftist opposition group leader Sergei Udaltsov. I think it’s great that people are out in public protesting this travesty, and look forward to seeing changes in Russian society and government in the near future. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826.md?page=4)