# Pussy Riot will topple Putin; mark my words! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826 "2012-08-08T04:45:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/81 "2012-08-18T20:46:33Z")
[ > [@](#): > > “We did forgive them from the very start. But such actions should be cut short by society and authorities,” said the cleric, who heads Moscow’s Sretensky Monastery. > > Archpriest Maxim Kozlov agreed, but he also said on state TV that his church hopes the young women and their supporters change their ways. > > “We are simply praying and hoping that these young women and all these people shouting in front of the court building, committing sacrilegious acts not only in Russia but in other countries, realize that their acts are awful,” he said. “And despite this the church is asking for mercy within the limits of law.” ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU\_RUSSIA\_PUNKS\_VS\_PUTIN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-08-18-14-52-32](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_RUSSIA_PUNKS_VS_PUTIN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-08-18-14-52-32)) The women have already been sentenced, and then the church calls for mercy. :rolleyes: I suppose it should be no big surprise that the church is making an empty gesture; that’s their stock-in-trade, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/82 "2012-08-18T20:50:38Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Not noticed because of the PR verdict is that on the same day, [Moscow bans gay pride parades for **100 years**](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19293465). ☹ Wow, that’s harsh. I have to agree with this: > [@aceplace57](#): > > A damn shame. We had 20 years to help a free Russia and pissed it away. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/83 "2012-08-18T21:14:36Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > A damn shame. We had 20 years to help a free Russia and pissed it away. You can lead a horse to water… Do you honestly think that “we” could have made Russia a different country? How? > [@](#): > > Putin recently announced a new military buildup. The next Cold War will be a reality soon. > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/putin-promises-big-russian-buildup/2012/02/20/gIQAzITMPR\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/putin-promises-big-russian-buildup/2012/02/20/gIQAzITMPR_story.html) I don’t think you now what that term meant. [Cold War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_war). All this means that Russia is going to become more and more isolated from the rest of the world. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/84 "2012-08-18T22:19:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Who made that rule? You like this question (or similar questions). As I’ve done in the past, I’ll answer again : me. This is not primarily a legal issue. It’s a moral and political one. What kind of action is morally legitimate when facing some level of political oppression? That’s obviously is going to be a matter of individual opinion, both about what actions are morally permissible and about the legitimacy (or lack thereof) of Putin’s rule. > [@](#): > > They got two years. In Virginia, criminal trespass carries a maximum sentence of one year. That doesn’t strike me as so dramatically different as to invalidate the sentence. OK. I’ll grant you that (although I’m not sure that they actually trespassed) > [@](#): > > Yes, except for the fact that the purpose of a trial is to determine the factual guilt of the parties. If your complaint was that they didn’t do it, you’d be on to something A trial is also about, for instance, delivering a sentence, at which point mitigating circumstances can be a factor. Also, we know what they did. But we don’t know how their actions could be qualified under Russian law. Here again, an effective defense can make a difference. Maybe it’s even arguable that they didn’t commit any crime, for all I know. I don’t know what the defense could state, but surely, you’re not going to tell me that whether or not you can have a proper defense is irrelevant once you’ve admitted to have done such or such action. Besides, again, that’s not primarily a dry legal issue. That’s about how the court system works in Russia. Especially in cases involving people who look more and more like the Soviet era dissidents. That’s about a state machinery which actually is in this case relatively “lenient” when compared to what happened to more serious opponents. Frankly, when you sentence kids to several years of work camp for singing a politically irreverent song in a church, it’s quite a big hint that something is really rotten in the kingdom (not that we needed this case to know it, of course). ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/85 "2012-08-18T22:30:03Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Not noticed because of the PR verdict is that on the same day, [Moscow bans gay pride parades for **100 years**](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19293465). ☹ 100 years? Good luck with that. :rolleyes: That’s beyond ridicule. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/86 "2012-08-18T22:39:34Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > Madonna is supporting them. She is an international star and when she and others go to Russia to perform or whatever, Vladimir Putin will take notice. Take notice? Probably. Care the slighest bit? Of course not. When did Putin display the slightest tendancy to change his ways as a result of external pressures? He takes pride in not doing so, at the contrary. And Madonna? To plagiarize one of his famous predecessors : “Madonna? How many divisions?” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/87 "2012-08-18T22:42:08Z")
Well, just wait until Lady Gaga has her say. Then Putin will start shaking in his boots! ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/88 "2012-08-18T23:14:51Z")
If Pussy Riot got two years, what does this topless Ukrainian who used a chainsaw to cut down a crucifix deserve? Link **NSFW** (bare boobies/non OSHA-approved safety precautions): > **[ItemFix - Social Video Factory](https://www.itemfix.com/?r=ll)** > > Social Video Factory (Copy/Paste above broken link in browser. And if, like me, you’re worried about watching a self-scalping about to take place, rest assured that she somehow manages to NOT hurt herself.) Unfortunately the protest seems more than just a bit misguided when you consider that: > [@](#): > > The cross was put up on a high hill near Kiev’s downtown Independence Square during the 2004 pro-democracy Orange Revolution to commemorate the victims of political repression under Joseph Stalin. > **[Topless Protester Cuts Down Cross in Kiev](https://sputnikglobe.com/20120817/175271764.html)** > > Activists from the Ukrainian feminist group Femen cut down a wooden crucifix in the center of the country’s capital, Kiev, on Friday in support of members of the Russian punk band Pussy Riot whose trial on hooliganism charges comes to an... In other topless Ukrainian blondes protesting the Russian Orthodox Church news, [there’s also this.](http://en.rian.ru/world/20120726/174787143.html) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/89 "2012-08-19T00:06:01Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Nonsense. > > Plenty of metalheads, inside and outside of Russia, consider the Pussy Riot “protest” despicable. Same goes for that one time one of 'em jammed a frozen chicken up her vagina. One word: OW ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/90 "2012-08-19T02:38:53Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > I am. There isn’t any reason to go into any religious place of worship and act like a total mocking, ass. It doesn’t accomplish anything at all. What they did was the same as if somebody decided to paint a mosque with pig blood, or refuse to take off their shoes in a Buddhist temple and track dirt all over the place. That wasn’t a political protest, it was just a sort of offensive “performance art” _at best_. If Pussy Riot wanted to protest the Church’s support of the Putin regime, it could have done so in about a zillion other ways that wouldn’t have landed their asses in jail. No, there is not in fact any way to protest against Putin without “landing your ass in jail,” which is sort of the point. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/91 "2012-08-19T04:31:51Z")
I don’t see the miscarriage of justice. They broke the law. YOU don’t get to decide if their hooliganism (which seemed pretty fucking disrespectful to the church they were in) sprang from religious hatred. It is clear that they aren’t really big fans of the church and they practically shat on the alter. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/92 "2012-08-19T04:51:30Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t see the miscarriage of justice. > > They broke the law. YOU don’t get to decide if their hooliganism (which seemed pretty fucking disrespectful to the church they were in) sprang from religious hatred. It is clear that they aren’t really big fans of the church and they practically shat on the alter. You don’t seem to be paying attention: they aren’t big fans of the church _acting as Putin’s shills_. I’ll wait here while you search (in vain) for any quotes from them that says they just don’t like the church. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/93 "2012-08-19T05:26:33Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t see the miscarriage of justice. > > They broke the law. YOU don’t get to decide if their hooliganism (which seemed pretty fucking disrespectful to the church they were in) sprang from religious hatred. It is clear that they aren’t really big fans of the church and they practically shat on the alter. What in the world is with all the posters demanding respect for the Russian legal system and the Orthodox Church, of all things? Where do you people come from? Besides Russia, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/94 "2012-08-19T12:23:32Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > What in the world is with all the posters demanding respect for the Russian legal system and the Orthodox Church, of all things? Where do you people come from? Besides Russia, I guess. Huh? Me, I’m from Sweden. How is that relevant exactly? Also: Remember the Danish Muhammed cartoons? Now imagine that instead of publishing his cartoon in a local rag in the untamed wilds of Buttfuck, Jutland, the cartoonist would have marched right into one of the holiest mosque in all of Islam, say Masjid al-Haram or Al-Aqsa, and spray-painted that shit all over the mihrab. That’s the level of offensiveness here. Not for you, of course, but for many of the world’s 150,000,000 Russian-Orthodox Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/95 "2012-08-19T12:39:43Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > One word: OW Yes. Not gonna post a link to the video, though, for obvious reasons. Oh and then there was the time they staged an orgy in a public museum. For some reason, that “protest” failed to spark a new Russian revolution, too. Let’s face it: We’re talking G.G. Allin-level stuff here. At least _that_ guy wrote a [couple](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_nWRVCNwg4) of [sweet tunes.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeJCjifFIuI) ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/96 "2012-08-19T14:52:32Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > What in the world is with all the posters demanding respect for the Russian legal system and the Orthodox Church, of all things? Where do you people come from? Besides Russia, I guess. America, where I expect my legal system and rights under law to be respected while I’m at home. When I’m abroad I make certain to be respectful of the laws of my host country. I don’t get to carry an America bubble with me wherever I go. Things aren’t the same everywhere, and rights are enforced by the government regardless of whatever pretty speech in the UN might state. They aren’t external, eternal, or given by a non-existent deity. I’m not a Russian legal scholar, so I’m not certain what rights and laws Russian citizens enjoy on a regular basis. However the Constitution States: > [@](#): > > Article 29. > > \*\* Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought and speech. > Propaganda or campaigning inciting social, racial, national or religious hatred and strife is impermissible. The propaganda of social, racial, national, religious or language superiority is forbidden.\*\* > No one may be coerced into expressing one’s views and convictions or into renouncing them. > Everyone shall have the right to seek, get, transfer, produce and disseminate information by any lawful means. The list of information constituting the state secret shall be established by the federal law. > The freedom of the mass media shall be guaranteed. Censorship shall be prohibited. Bolding mine. Apparently in Russia, certain kinds of speech are limited in their constitution itself and not just in state or federal laws like we have over here. Now I agree with you that Pussy Riot’s performance was politically rather than religiously motivated, but that doesn’t mean that it might not _meet the criteria_ for hate speech under Russian law. Frankly, that is all the law cares about. We’ve seen that a million times in our own country where overly broad laws are used inappropriately to convict people who technically meet the criteria for a transgression. Think of zero tolerance laws for example. This is an overreach by the Russian government, but it’s hardly an egregious transgression of their own constitution. That being the case, I can’t muster up a whole lot of outrage over a harsh conviction for a shitty punk band who desecrated a church to make a (sort-of) political point. There is a difference between respecting a government’s autonomy and approving of it in total. I don’t approve of how Putin strong arms the media, and I don’t approve of the church acting on his behalf. However, I’m not a Russian. It isn’t my country, my laws, my cultural heritage being disrespected, or a simple cut and dried case of an innocent, peaceful protester being carried off to the gulag. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/97 "2012-09-18T16:15:18Z")
[Orthodox Russian deacon willingly defrocked over Pussy Riot](http://www.boston.com/2012/09/18/bad-aba-bad-deced-entry-cont/9fGm4qBpzicXc5iUt4tDyL/story.html). > [@](#): > > Baranov, who had led a quiet life as a deacon in the small city of Tambov, became an Internet celebrity last month when he asked to be defrocked in an open letter to the Moscow patriarchate, saying he was outraged by the church’s stance against three members of the punk band Pussy Riot. > [@](#): > > Baranov told The Associated Press on Tuesday that he supports the band’s stunt and does not regret his resignation. > > ‘‘Everyone prays as they can,’’ Baranov said of the Pussy Riot members. ‘‘And with their act they exposed the ills and blisters of society. We should have done that a long time ago.’’ > [@](#): > > The Pussy Riot case demonstrated that the church is more attentive to the government than to the needs of its believers, and it is time for a change in the clergy hierarchy, he argued. > > Anger with the church began to boil at the time of Putin’s re-election to a third presidential term in March, when Patriarch Kirill strongly backed his bid, calling the 12-year Putin rule a ‘‘miracle of God.’’ Putin, who was facing massive street protests in Moscow against his rule, was eager to have a helping hand by the church in swaying more devout voters in his direction. > > ‘‘When Hitler and Stalin created their powerful totalitarian regimes, they made use of powerful ideologies,’’ said Father Gleb Yakunin, a former Russian Orthodox Church priest who was defrocked in the 1990s. ‘‘Putin seems to be a good administrator, but (he’s) a weak ideologist, so he decided to use something that already exists.’’ > > After Baranov posted his open letter online, the Tambov regional clergy issued a press release on their website in which they accused him of ‘‘rakish behavior’’ and alcohol abuse, saying that he was using the current political climate and the trial of Pussy Riot as an excuse to leave the church. > > The former deacon was subsequently defrocked, although an official defrocking requires confirmation by the patriarch, who is likely to sign the mandate within a few weeks. Officials at Moscow Patriarchate wouldn’t comment on Baranov’s case. I really don’t think that martyring three young women was the smartest move for Putin’s government to make, but it seems that the authoritarian streak in Russia goes deep: > [@](#): > > ‘‘It wasn’t correct for him to write in support (of the Pussy Riot girls),’’ said Larisa Krasnova, a retired military sergeant who had been visiting the church with her grandson. ‘‘I approve of the fact that they were tried because it’s blasphemy and **because it’s unforgivable**.’’ (bolding mine) I wonder: what does the ROC actually teach their congregation about Jesus and his life? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/98 "2012-09-18T17:12:16Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I wonder: what does the ROC actually teach their congregation about Jesus and his life? :dubious: Not to make sweeping statements about protests that won’t go anywhere? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/99 "2012-10-10T16:46:29Z")
[ > [@](#): > > The Moscow City Court ruled that Yekaterina Samutsevich’s sentence should be suspended because she was thrown out of the cathedral by guards before she could remove her guitar from its case and thus did not take part in the performance. The two other defendants squealed with joy and hugged Samutsevich before she was led from the courtroom to be mobbed by friends and journalists waiting outside on the street. ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU\_RUSSIA\_PUNKS\_VS\_PUTIN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-10-10-12-36-50](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_RUSSIA_PUNKS_VS_PUTIN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-10-10-12-36-50)) Which begs the question: how was she convicted in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826/100 "2012-10-10T17:02:36Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Which begs the question: how was she convicted in the first place? Color me shocked – shocked – that the justice system in Russia is not up to our standards. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pussy-riot-will-topple-putin-mark-my-words/630826.md?page=6)