# Put up or shut up: tell us your plan to get the US out of Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685 "2006-09-06T19:34:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/61 "2006-09-07T15:19:47Z")
[QUOTE=erie774] Just as a quick aside, how well did Vietnam do after the US left? [/QUOTE] One hell of a lot better than they did when the U.S. was there. The war continued for a short time but at least it ended. The U.S. presence in Vietnam probably killed, at the absolute minimum, a million Vietnamese who’d not have died were it not for THAT imperialist misadventure. Maybe you don’t like Communism - neither do I - but a unified Vietnam at peace was certainly a safer place than a Vietnam being bombed and ripped apart by the Americans. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/62 "2006-09-07T16:25:43Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] Referring to me, **David**? I don’t have one. Iraq isn’t going to be a shining beacon for anyone other than those looking for some target practice. I do believe, however, that I am smart enough to recognize when the situation is a total loss and time to drop it. Any excuses, rationalizations, or milestones (presumably ones where there will be sufficient wiggle room to allow them to still be “met” when the situation gets too out of control) are just an excuse to stretch things out, continue denying what is right in front of us, and waste more money and more lives. -Joe [/QUOTE] Of course not and I’m puzzled as to why you thought that. I was referring to those who demand a plan from those of us who think it’s time to wind up the Iraq misadventure but whose only plan of their own is to “stay the course” without detailing “the course.” From this post of yours it sounds as if you and I, and many others, are in agreement that we broke it but there isn’t any way left for us to fix it. As has been the Bush method, when he manages things he leaves behind him a trail of wreckage for others to clean up. As he himself said when asked about some problem - That’s for a future President. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/63 "2006-09-07T17:54:51Z")
[QUOTE=Frankenstein Monster] Up until recently, I would have continued: …and install a democracy. However, lately I have started wondering whether America is really ready for democracy. I large fraction of the population is really hopelessly belligerent, really thinks that the only solution to disagreements is to shoot somebody (_anybody_). So I don’t think America is ready for democracy at this time. I think the best solution would be reeducation camps for everybody - teach people to live together peacefully and be able to handle differences of opinion both internal and external. [/QUOTE] One would have thought that spending some time on this board would have illustrated the diversity of viewpoints of Americans. But you seem to have a singular opinion on the matter that none of these threads have improved. Maybe you’d like to start a new thread extolling the virtues of the perfect, unblemished, pacifist heaven-on-earth that is Europe? In the meantime, > [@the OP](#): > > Put up or shut up ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/64 "2006-09-07T18:14:46Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] So ? Not that it will happen, but those would be good things. [/QUOTE] Naw. As President, I will whenever possible act in my country’s best interest. Far more responsibility towards my coountry’s well-being than the health of foreign nations (even ones with lots of oil!) It certainly was not in our best interest to go into Iraq, but having done so - and spent a ton of $ and lives so far, I see no controlling reason to have the US assume even more obligations stretching into the futre. And it wouldn’t exactly be the first time a nation was less than fully candid about its percetions/motivations. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/65 "2006-09-07T18:35:24Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] Naw. As President, I will whenever possible act in my country’s best interest. Far more responsibility towards my coountry’s well-being than the health of foreign nations (even ones with lots of oil!) It certainly was not in our best interest to go into Iraq, but having done so - and spent a ton of $ and lives so far, I see no controlling reason to have the US assume even more obligations stretching into the futre. And it wouldn’t exactly be the first time a nation was less than fully candid about its percetions/motivations. [/QUOTE] I am more concerned with the good of humanity, not America; _especially_ America, given how it is behaving. As President, I would regard it as my duty to cripple America as badly as possible, to protect the world in general from it’s depredations. As for your post, I consider it an advocation of war crimes; we’ve killed tens of thousands of Iraqis and devastated their country. We’ve raped and tortured and screwed them over more ways than I count. We owe them a _lot_, not that we’ll ever make up for it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/66 "2006-09-07T18:50:36Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I am more concerned with the good of humanity, not America; _especially_ America, given how it is behaving. As President, I would regard it as my duty to cripple America as badly as possible, to protect the world in general from it’s depredations. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: It’s a wonder that every political party isn’t knocking down your door to draft you onto it’s ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/67 "2006-09-07T19:00:43Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] :rolleyes: It’s a wonder that every political party isn’t knocking down your door to draft you onto it’s ticket. [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t join them if they offered. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/68 "2006-09-07T19:02:06Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I am more concerned with the good of humanity, not America; _especially_ America, given how it is behaving. As President, I would regard it as my duty to cripple America as badly as possible, to protect the world in general from it’s depredations. [/QUOTE] So you’re a liar. (Think about it.) Also, wouldn’t a crippled American be even more dangerous? Countries generally lash out when they’re threatened. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/69 "2006-09-07T19:07:40Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] So you’re a liar. [/quote] No, I’m not. That’s why I’ll never get elected; “If I’m elected, I promise to screw America right down into the ground !” just doesn’t sell. [QUOTE=RickJay] Also, wouldn’t a crippled American be even more dangerous? Countries generally lash out when they’re threatened. [/QUOTE] Except America wouldn’t be able to afford much lashing out, and it’s already lashing out despite _not_ being threatened. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/70 "2006-09-07T19:09:07Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] So you’re a liar. [/QUOTE] Oh, and to be clear, I have no _moral_ problem with lying in a good cause. I don’t, because it makes me uncomfortable, and I’m terrible at it. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/71 "2006-09-07T22:00:36Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Oh, and to be clear, I have no _moral_ problem with lying in a good cause. I don’t, because it makes me uncomfortable, and I’m terrible at it. [/QUOTE] So besides your honesty, your second best quality must be your humility. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/72 "2006-09-07T23:00:04Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] So besides your honesty, your second best quality must be your humility. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] I’ve never claimed to be humble, nor do I consider being overly honest a virtue. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/73 "2006-09-08T00:59:37Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I am more concerned with the good of humanity, not America; _especially_ America, given how it is behaving. As President, I would regard it as my duty to cripple America as badly as possible, to protect the world in general from it’s depredations. [/QUOTE] Well, you do occupy/advocate what many would consider a somewhat extreme position. 😉 I agree with portions of a lot of what you say. But, not the extremes you advocate. But I imagine you hear that somewhat often… ---
**Author:** ![nano8track](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8e8cbc/32.png) [@nano8track](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nano8track)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/74 "2006-09-08T01:06:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*You find yourself suddenly in the oval office, with your political allies firmly in control of both house and Senate (i.e., with 2/3 or better majorities in both houses). What’s your plan to extricate the US from Iraq? - Institute tax breaks, grants, etc… for anyone willing to do research on alternative fuel sources. Also start implementing the alternative fuel sources that already exist. It may not be a quick solution, but it will keep us from wanting to keep meddling about in the Middle East like we have for the past 30-50 years. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/75 "2006-09-08T10:27:44Z")
People here don’t seem to be understanding that the Coalition will never leave Iraq in its entiriety and that even with a break up, many US forces would be stationed in Kurdistan, with Kirkuk being annexed to their own region. So even if Iraq’s a failure, the US still gets; A) A secular ally (One actually supported by its people) B) 40% of Iraqs Oil reserves C) Bases in close proximity to _Kurdish Iran_ So in my view, if everything fails south of Kurdistan, they still win. > [@](#): > > **RickJay** > One hell of a lot better than they did when the U.S. was there. The war continued for a short time but at least it ended. The U.S. presence in Vietnam probably killed, at the absolute minimum, a million Vietnamese who’d not have died were it not for THAT imperialist misadventure. Yet after 1973 South Vietnam with US logistical support and Airpower (note:No US troops) was able to counter the NVA and NLF almost completely, only when this was withdrawn, and the implementation of the Paris Peace Accords was not honoured, did the NVA feel that they had the opportunity to strike. Nice to know you completely leave out the NVA, NLF in their brutal campaign against civilians in the South, and lump all the massacres on the US military. > [@](#): > > Maybe you don’t like Communism - neither do I - but a unified Vietnam at peace was certainly a safer place than a Vietnam being bombed and ripped apart by the Americans. 1 million boat people cannot be wrong!! ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/76 "2006-09-08T11:38:17Z")
> [@](#): > > 1 million boat people cannot be wrong!! Certainly a lot of people left. From what I hear though, the economy is doing a lot better now and it’s not a bad place to live. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/77 "2006-09-08T14:23:59Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] All these responses seem to revolve around the Iraqi security forces suddenly being competent and capable. [/QUOTE] Well, why aren’t they? Before the invasion, Iraq had no shortage of trained and experienced soldiers and trained and experienced police officers. Why not just hunt up those guys and offer them jobs? Sure, many of them were Ba’ath Party members, but, as in Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, the ruling party was just something you had to join if you wanted to get ahead. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/78 "2006-09-08T14:43:57Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] blah blah blah… \ The result would probably be a military dictatorship, but it could be a stable one. [/QUOTE] You mean like the one you just tumbled at the cost of innumerable lives? :rolleyes: * * * > [@Ryan](#): > > People here don’t seem to be understanding that the Coalition will never leave Iraq in its entiriety and that even with a break up, many US forces would be stationed in Kurdistan, with Kirkuk being annexed to their own region. So even if Iraq’s a failure, the US still gets; > > A) A secular ally (One actually supported by its people) > > B) 40% of Iraqs Oil reserves > > C) Bases in close proximity to Kurdish Iran > > So in my view, if everything fails south of Kurdistan, they still win. And what you’re apparently incapable of grasping is that short of war against **both** , Turkey and Iran, that ain’t gonna happen. * * * What the hey, at this point I say “stay the course,” since we all know how _that’s_ going: \*[The number of U.S. troops in Iraq rose to 145,000 this week, the highest since December and 15,000 more than a month ago.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060907/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iraq_troops) \*[Army Faces Rising Number of Roadside Bombs in Iraq](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/07/AR2006090701372.html) Hmm…_still_ no flowers? ## \*[Body Count in Baghdad Nearly Triples Morgue’s Revised Toll for August Undermines Claims by Leaders of Steep Drop in Violence](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/07/AR2006090700768_pf.html) Seriously, get the fuck out. The sooner the better for all involved. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/79 "2006-09-08T15:44:16Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I am more concerned with the good of humanity, not America; _especially_ America, given how it is behaving. As President, I would regard it as my duty to cripple America as badly as possible, to protect the world in general from it’s depredations. [/QUOTE] Seriously, have you ever actually left the US? Here’s a hint: the rest of the world isn’t a bed of roses where everyone would be living in harmony if only the US would leave them alone long enough to do so, kumbayah. I’d suggest by having a rather benevolent empire like the US in the world is more of a stabilizing influence than not. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/80 "2006-09-08T15:55:00Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] People here don’t seem to be understanding that the Coalition will never leave Iraq in its entiriety and that even with a break up, many US forces would be stationed in Kurdistan, with Kirkuk being annexed to their own region. [/quote] Oh, I understand; but that wasn’t the point of the OP. [QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] B) 40% of Iraqs Oil reserves [/quote] So America is an armed robber; what’s new ? [QUOTE=Uzi] Seriously, have you ever actually left the US? Here’s a hint: the rest of the world isn’t a bed of roses where everyone would be living in harmony if only the US would leave them alone long enough to do so, kumbayah. I’d suggest by having a rather benevolent empire like the US in the world is more of a stabilizing influence than not. [/QUOTE] I never claimed that the world was a paradise. Nor do I consider America’s hegemony to be remotely benevolent; America is the Empire of Greed and Malice. That’s why we are in Iraq; greed and malice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685.md?page=5)