# Put up or shut up: tell us your plan to get the US out of Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685 "2006-09-06T19:34:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/101 "2006-09-10T04:08:19Z")
[QUOTE=Tristan] Gotta say (as I’m sure others have done) that you’re wrong on this one. I’ve got a brother who was over there for about 18 months, and several friends that have spent at least 9 months apiece over there. Most of the people are at worst, ambivilant. A minority are very very against the US/Coalition forces. They tend to be very very vocal. [/QUOTE] Yeah, that’s why we have 2,600 dead. They were spoken to too loudly by the vocal minority. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/102 "2006-09-10T14:41:57Z")
[QUOTE=David Simmons] And, by the way, I don’t think there is much chance that control of Iraq oil will wind up where they want it to. I think it a lot more likely to be controlled by Iran. [/QUOTE] You mean hand over Basra to Iran ? It might work - certainly worth considering. Kuwait would not like it, but that is no major problem. Up in the North it is the Kurds, a problem for Turkey, Syria and … Iran ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/103 "2006-09-10T15:09:33Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] You mean hand over Basra to Iran ? [/QUOTE] :dubious: I don’t think it’s necessary for any part of Iraq to be occupied physically for Iran to control the political climate there. And that climate is what determines how Iraq handles its oil resource. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/104 "2006-09-10T18:07:34Z")
[QUOTE=DanBlather] Yeah, that’s why we have 2,600 dead. They were spoken to too loudly by the vocal minority. [/QUOTE] So you’re saying that a majority of Iraqis have taken up arms against the US and the Iraqi Government? Effective organisation of terrorist cells can cause a substantial amount of damage. They don’t have to be large to do this. > [@](#): > > **David Simmons** > And, by the way, I don’t think there is much chance that control of Iraq oil will wind up where they want it to. I think it a lot more likely to be controlled by Iran. Then Kirkuk would be then handed over to pretty much the most solid US ally in the area, the Kurdish Autonomous region. If this situation were likely to happen, and as Kirkuk holds 40% of proven reserves, this would still be a win-win situation. > [@](#): > > **RickJay** > So don’t say I did, or else you’re a liar. Well next time please don’t imply that the US was the sole aggressor on a bunch of barefoot guerilla peasants. > [@](#): > > Are you seriously asking that I mention that war is brutal? What other kids of war are there, kid? You misinterpret me, I’m saying that all sides were brutal, malicious and callous, to single out the US as if it was solely the perpetrator is misleading. > [@](#): > > I didn’t “Vent my fury” at “US troops” or, for that matter, at anyone. It is a fact, not an opinion, that the United States escalated and prolonged a war in Vietnam that went on for over ten years and killed millions of people. It was a terrible mistake and a humanitarian disaster. So it’s opinion, not fact. Fact proves that both sides escalated the involvement and use of military action. > [@](#): > > Deal with it. I have. > [@](#): > > Because of course Korea and Vietnam are exactly the same… oh, no, wait, they’re not. That’s not the point, the point is that if the US were able to commit themselves to the agreements they hammered out, SV would not of folded so quickly and may of been able to stand on its own feet, since it was able too until '75 after the US withdrew its groundforces in '73, but since the US didn’t abide by the Paris Peace accords, as the NVA didn’t, that was not to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/105 "2006-09-10T19:04:47Z")
[QUOTE=Tristan] Gotta say (as I’m sure others have done) that you’re wrong on this one. I’ve got a brother who was over there for about 18 months, and several friends that have spent at least 9 months apiece over there. [/quote] Your brother and friends were probably under orders to lie, or they was mistaken. [QUOTE=Tristan] Most of the people are at worst, ambivilant. A minority are very very against the US/Coalition forces. They tend to be very very vocal. [/quote] Last I heard, between 45%-65% supported killing foreign troops, depending on where you asked. That was months back, so I expect it’s worse ( or better, depending on your viewpoint ) by now. [QUOTE=Tristan] And another minority actually likes and supports the US/Coalition forces, and hopes that the Iraqi government can get it’s ducks in a row. [/quote] Less than 1%, last I heard. > [@](#): > > • Forty-five per cent of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified - rising to 65 per cent in the British-controlled Maysan province; > > • 82 per cent are “strongly opposed” to the presence of coalition troops; > > • less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security; > > • 67 per cent of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation; > > • 43 per cent of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened; > > • 72 per cent do not have confidence in the multi-national forces. From [here](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/23/wirq23.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/23/ixworld.html). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/106 "2006-09-10T19:10:02Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] The US has proven very good at robbing from the rich and giving to the poor, just look at our tax code - I have no doubt that we can extend this internationally. [/quote] Please, our tax code heavily favors the wealthy. [QUOTE=kanicbird] No, their violence and rage will incite us to oppose them, it is the terrorists who are creating their enemy, not the other way around. [/QUOTE] _We_ invaded _them_, not the other way around. It is ALL our fault. Nor is killing our troops terrorism; it is the clear duty of the Iraqis to kill as many of us as possible. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/107 "2006-09-10T20:07:43Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Then Kirkuk would be then handed over to pretty much the most solid US ally in the area, the Kurdish Autonomous region. If this situation were likely to happen, and as Kirkuk holds 40% of proven reserves, this would still be a win-win situation. [/QUOTE] This assumes an autonomous Kurdistan, doesn’t it? That’s going to be a real sticking point for our friend Turkey, and for Iran too. They are both a lot closer to the Kurd’s lands than we are and I hope we have learned something about how far we can project adequate force into the middle east. Even if there is an autonomous Kurdistan, oil is of no use to it in Kirkuk. It has to be gotten out to market through some mighty hostile neihbors. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/108 "2006-09-10T20:11:11Z")
> [@](#): > > We invaded them, not the other way around Who is ‘them’, if it’s Iraq, dam straight we did back in Gulf War 1, we had a reture to hostilities when Sadam lied about WMD’s, making the world beleive he had them, though to be honset shooting at our planes would be enough of a violation to justify resuming hostilities. > [@](#): > > It is ALL our fault. Are you part of Sadam’s staff, then yes it’s all your fault - but please don’t say our fault, I didn’t support Sadam. I do agree with you that taking up arms against our forces is not terrorism if you are defening your country, but these ‘insurgents’ are really getting Americans p’ed off at them and help fostering a anti-islamic sentiment here, which could very likely bring back racial profiling as open poliacy. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/109 "2006-09-10T20:58:58Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Are you part of Sadam’s staff, then yes it’s all your fault - but please don’t say our fault, I didn’t support Sadam. [/quote] :rolleyes: Ours as in America’s fault. What Saddam did or did not do was irrelevant; we would have attacked regardless. [QUOTE=kanicbird] I do agree with you that taking up arms against our forces is not terrorism if you are defening your country, but these ‘insurgents’ are really getting Americans p’ed off at them and help fostering a anti-islamic sentiment here, which could very likely bring back racial profiling as open poliacy. [/QUOTE] From their viewpoint that’s a good thing, since it creates dissension within their enemy, us. And I _seriously_ doubt if they care if we are “p’ed off at them”, and I’m sure they _already_ are quite certain of our implacable hostility to Islam. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/110 "2006-09-10T21:13:44Z")
> [@](#): > > We invaded them, not the other way around Who is ‘them’, if it’s Iraq, dam straight we did back in Gulf War 1, we had a reture to hostilities when Sadam lied about WMD’s, making the world beleive he had them, though to be honset shooting at our planes would be enough of a violation to justify resuming hostilities. > [@](#): > > It is ALL our fault. Are you part of Sadam’s staff, then yes it’s all your fault - but please don’t say our fault, I didn’t support Sadam. I do agree with you that taking up arms against our forces is not terrorism if you are defening your country, but these ‘insurgents’ are really getting Americans p’ed off at them and help fostering a anti-islamic sentiment here, which could very likely bring back racial profiling as open poliacy. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/111 "2006-09-10T22:09:39Z")
Double posts . . . an hour apart ? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/112 "2006-09-10T23:09:14Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Double posts . . . an hour apart ? [/QUOTE] I got a time out error the first time, hit the back button, went to dinner, then reposted when I got back. > [@](#): > > What Saddam did or did not do was irrelevant; we would have attacked regardless. what can I say, I don’t agree, actually I believe W gave Sadam a chance to surrender before we invaded, which would be kind of silly if we were going to invade anyway. > [@](#): > > From their viewpoint that’s a good thing, since it creates dissension within their enemy, us. Perhaps, I think we are killing them, and their leadership far faster then they are getting replacements, plus the US is paying much more attention to the terrorists, sorry I see it opposite - they are loosing support and we are gaining support. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/113 "2006-09-10T23:18:21Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] what can I say, I don’t agree, actually I believe W gave Sadam a chance to surrender before we invaded, which would be kind of silly if we were going to invade anyway. [/quote] Nothing but show; some of Bush’s officals even admitted before the war ( one in an Italian interview IIRC; can’t find a link ) that they would have invaded even if Saddam left Iraq or died. [QUOTE=kanicbird] Perhaps, I think we are killing them, and their leadership far faster then they are getting replacements, plus the US is paying much more attention to the terrorists, sorry I see it opposite - they are loosing support and we are gaining support. [/QUOTE] Then you are living in a fantasy world. We are losing support, and have from the beginning, and we are paying little attention to terrorists, and a great deal to people who resist our rape of Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/114 "2006-09-10T23:27:03Z")
In an earlier post I stated that we don’t know what is “the course” that we are supposed to stay. On _Meet The Press_ today Cheney touched on the subject. The desired end product is a freely elected Iraq government that represents the will of the Iraqis. I would suppose that such a government also maintains law and order so that people can get on with their lives. Well, it would real neat if there was a Santa Claus who gives every child nice toys at Christmas. What Cheney didn’t say is that a government that represents the will of the Iraqis is at least as likely to be inimical to US interests as to be friendly to us. This pie-in-the-sky hope is not a plan. It is a goal and there is remarkable silence as to how this goal is to be gained. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2006, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/115 "2006-09-10T23:38:50Z")
> [@](#): > > What Cheney didn’t say is that a government that represents the will of the Iraqis is at least as likely to be inimical to US interests as to be friendly to us. So what? Egypt Jordan Saudi Arabia, and whole host of other Arab States are non democratic and are supported by the US for ‘vested US interests’ What, if you say that even if Iraq is democratic and yet still supports US interests, is the problem? At least they’ll be able to vote out their government every 4 years. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/116 "2006-09-11T01:57:50Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] So what? Egypt Jordan Saudi Arabia, and whole host of other Arab States are non democratic and are supported by the US for ‘vested US interests’ What, if you say that even if Iraq is democratic and yet still supports US interests, is the problem? At least they’ll be able to vote out their government every 4 years. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: The rather obvious point **David Simmons** was making is that a democratic Iraq _won’t_ support US interests. Personally, I’d expect implacable hatred for generations, and a serious dedication to hurting us and our interests as much as possible. Jordon and Saudi Arabia work with us because they are _not_ democratic; if they were, _they_ would be out to harm us as well. In a region ( and more and more the world ) that hates us, democracy is directly linked to a nation’s hostility towards us, because we are hated _by the people_. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2006, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/117 "2006-09-11T03:46:16Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Perhaps, I think we are killing them, and their leadership far faster then they are getting replacements, [/QUOTE] Let’'s see, the Iraqis have to do this democratization and maintaining law and order and as soon as they are ready to do that we will leave. But they aren’t quite ready yet. And now, and for quite a while, the administration has been pushing body count. Why do those two things sound awfully familiar? All we need now is someone to play Westmoreland. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/118 "2006-09-12T01:06:27Z")
Well, shit. At least [Murders are down!](http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/09/11/iraq.deaths.ap/index.html) -Joe ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/119 "2006-09-12T02:01:24Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] we had a reture to hostilities when Sadam lied about WMD’s, making the world beleive he had them, [/quote] We went to war \*because \* he _wasn’t_ a real threat after all? 😕 Now \*there’s \* an assertion we don’t see every day. > [@David Simmons](#): > > All we need now is someone to play Westmoreland. Maybe not. There have been too many command officers coming forward with honest assessments lately for the “light at the end of the tunnel” line to work. Only a shrinking minority of people still buy it. The role of McNamara in this tragical farce is filled, of course (and notice how he hasn’t said a word in public about seeing this sequel?), but Rummy has to be too radioactive to get a chance at rehabilitating what reputation he does have left. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2006, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685/120 "2006-09-12T02:08:24Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Your brother and friends were probably under orders to lie, or they was mistaken. [/QUOTE] If you truly believe that, and believe that the average American soldier would follow that order once released, you have an incredibly naive take on things. My brother has told me some hair-raising tales, but I have no reason to question the truthfulness of what he says. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Last I heard, between 45%-65% supported killing foreign troops, depending on where you asked. That was months back, so I expect it’s worse ( or better, depending on your viewpoint ) by now. [/QUOTE] I imagine your take on it is better, since you explicitly stated that it’s your belief that the duty of all Iraqi’s is to kill American soldiers. If about half of the 26 million Iraqi’s support killing Foreign Troops, I’m curious to know why the number of Coalition dead is so low. One would think that in a country wherein weapons collections have failed abysmally, there would be a lot more dead soldiers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/put-up-or-shut-up-tell-us-your-plan-to-get-the-us-out-of-iraq/371685.md?page=7)