# Putin Reignites Cold war? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 30, 2007, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042 "2007-05-30T11:16:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/1 "2007-05-30T11:16:48Z")
Russia has just announced the development of a new family of MIRV-warhead ICBMs. they are solid fueld, and have a range of \>5000 miles. Does this presage a new cold war? Whay does Russia feel the need to develop new nuclear weapons? are they upgrading their nuclear submarine fleet as well? is this because the US is developing an anti-ICBM system? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/2 "2007-05-30T12:16:10Z")
I’m not really sure how it precipitates another Cold War anymore than the anti-ICBM system you mention does. Technically you could call any upgrading of nuclear arsenal/defense the potential beginning of a new Cold War, by that definition. I suspect that Russia feels the need to do so in order to up their deterrent; they’re not exactly in all that strong a world position nowadays, and while I don’t expect an invasion or anything I would say the same about most nuclear countries. As to the question, I personally would say no, since there isn’t a big upswelling of actual threat there. I don’t see Russia building these new missiles as being clearly designed so that the U.S. may be threatened; that’s IMHO, though. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/3 "2007-05-30T12:55:55Z")
Russia’s big problem is China, not America. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/4 "2007-05-30T14:16:19Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] is this because the US is developing an anti-ICBM system? [/QUOTE] Yes. It’s a direct consequence. I’d say WE are the ones reigniting the cold war. (Of course, since our ABM system has NEVER worked, it’s pretty stupid of us to provoke hostilities that we would inevitably lose. Advanced, proven Russian missiles vs. non-working US missile defenses = dumb.) ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/5 "2007-05-30T14:37:33Z")
I don’t think you can have a cold war without two belligerent and aggressive opposing national governments. One country does not a cold war make. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/6 "2007-05-30T14:53:59Z")
Russia is at odds with most of the rest of the West, but that’s nothing new for Russia. It’s not new, and that alone doesn’t make for a Cold War. [quote=] Quartz Russia’s big problem is China, not America. [/quote] And I’d say China is a bigger problem for America than Russia is. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/7 "2007-05-30T16:18:06Z")
An interesting argument was made nearly a year ago in [this _Nation_ article](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060717/cohen_charlierose_video/2) that the American-Russian cold war never really ended: > [@](#): > > […] Since the early 1990s Washington has simultaneously conducted, under Democrats and Republicans, two fundamentally different policies toward post-Soviet Russia–one decorative and outwardly reassuring, the other real and exceedingly reckless. The decorative policy, which has been taken at face value in the United States, at least until recently, professes to have replaced America’s previous cold war intentions with a generous relationship of “strategic partnership and friendship.” The public image of this approach has featured happy-talk meetings between American and Russian presidents, first “Bill and Boris” (Clinton and Yeltsin), then “George and Vladimir.” > > The real US policy has been very different […] > > § A growing military encirclement of Russia, on and near its borders, by US and NATO bases, which are already ensconced or being planned in at least half the fourteen other former Soviet republics, from the Baltics and Ukraine to Georgia, Azerbaijan and the new states of Central Asia. The result is a US-built reverse iron curtain and the remilitarization of American-Russian relations. > > § A tacit (and closely related) US denial that Russia has any legitimate national interests outside its own territory, even in ethnically akin or contiguous former republics such as Ukraine, Belarus and Georgia. […] > > § Even more, a presumption that Russia does not have full sovereignty within its own borders, as expressed by constant US interventions in Moscow’s internal affairs since 1992. […] > > § Underpinning these components of the real US policy are familiar cold war double standards condemning Moscow for doing what Washington does–such as seeking allies and military bases in former Soviet republics, using its assets (oil and gas in Russia’s case) as aid to friendly governments and regulating foreign money in its political life. […] > > § Finally, the United States is attempting, by exploiting Russia’s weakness, to acquire the nuclear superiority it could not achieve during the Soviet era. That is the essential meaning of two major steps taken by the Bush Administration in 2002, both against Moscow’s strong wishes. One was the Administration’s unilateral withdrawal from the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, freeing it to try to create a system capable of destroying incoming missiles and thereby the capacity to launch a nuclear first strike without fear of retaliation. The other was pressuring the Kremlin to sign an ultimately empty nuclear weapons reduction agreement requiring no actual destruction of weapons and indeed allowing development of new ones; providing for no verification; and permitting unilateral withdrawal before the specified reductions are required. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/8 "2007-05-30T16:51:30Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] Russia’s big problem is China, not America. [/QUOTE] Russia and China [formed an alliance two years ago.](http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/1627.asp) [Earlier thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=379830) on the new Cold War. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/9 "2007-05-30T17:10:18Z")
I actually think there’s a strong argument to be made that Russia is going to increasingly be at odds with the EU than it is with the U.S., if for no other reason than proximity (foreign policy wise the U.S. doesn’t have any particular level of belligerence towards Russia any longer.) Russia and China agreeing to a strategic alliance doesn’t really have a significant effect on the Sino-American relationship, either. China isn’t going to become a big problem for America because China values the economic relationship it has with the United States. China be coming more powerful relative to the U.S. doesn’t necessarily imply moving against the United States. In a multi-polar world it isn’t necessarily guaranteed that all of the poles are going to fight one another. ---
**Author:** ![lokij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@lokij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lokij)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/10 "2007-05-30T18:25:47Z")
It’s really no surprise that Russia would invest in a new class of ICBMs, their old ones are nearing the end of their projected useful lifespan. It should be noted that post-Soviet Russia’s track record on new missile development has been spotty with some high profile failures. A successful and proven new design is good news in my book, it means they have a demonstrated capability to rely upon. There was talk after the Bulava failure of them going on ‘hair trigger’ alert because of a lack of confidence in their hardware to survive a first strike. They’re barking about the missile defense system, but they’re more concerned that we’re taking over influence in eastern Europe that had traditionally been theirs… the defense system is just a symbol of that. No missile defense system we could field would protect us from a full Russian nuclear exchange and they know that as much as we do. I’m not exactly sure what Putin is up to, he’s got some money now… thanks to high oil prices, and investment is coming in… but Russia has serious structural problems and a population that is actually shrinking. If I had to guess, I’d say he’s using the windfall of money to shore up a credible defense, using some good old nationalistic bombast to buck up the home base’s morale and trying to buy some time for Russia as a credible world power until that foreign investment provides a more long term solution. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/11 "2007-05-30T18:37:33Z")
Why is Putin so paranoid? the USA has helped him out, many times…and the high oil prices (Russia is now the #1 oil producer) has provided him with mountains of cash. Russia has everything in the way of raw materials-it just needs time to modernize its industrial plant. If I were Putin, I’d spend the money on new highways and housing-how many ICBMs DO you need? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/12 "2007-05-30T18:40:38Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] how many ICBMs DO you need? [/QUOTE] Just one, I guess. But you better make damned sure it’s not going to fail, hence the constant development of new and better ICBMs, with fancier gadgets. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/13 "2007-05-30T18:45:14Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Why is Putin so paranoid? the USA has helped him out, many times..and the high oil prices (Russia is now the #1 oil producer) has provided him with mountains of cash. Russia has everything in the way of raw materials-it just needs time to modernize its industrial plant. If I were Putin, I’d spend the money on new highways and housing-how many ICBMs DO you need? [/QUOTE] America has shiny new anti-ICBM systems - why are they so paranoid? I don’t see how what Russia is doing is any different than what pretty much every country is doing nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/14 "2007-05-30T18:54:17Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] America has shiny new anti-ICBM systems - why are they so paranoid? I don’t see how what Russia is doing is any different than what pretty much every country is doing nowadays. [/QUOTE] America is designing new ICBMs? That’s the first I’ve heard about it. ---
**Author:** ![lonih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4af34b/32.png) [@lonih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonih)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/15 "2007-05-30T19:33:13Z")
The cold war is kept going by the arms manufacturers in all countries. They have huge budgets to influence officials. If the US were willing to sign some of the disarmament and non-proliferation treaties that we have ignored, then their progress would be tougher. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/16 "2007-05-30T19:47:19Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] America is designing new ICBMs? That’s the first I’ve heard about it. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Me] America has shiny new **anti** -ICBM systems - why are they so paranoid? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=ralph124c] is this because the US is developing an **anti** -ICBM system? [/QUOTE] (my boldings) I am merely going by the OP. If you disagree, I suggest you take the issue up with him, rather than me. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/17 "2007-05-30T20:06:31Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] (my boldings) I am merely going by the OP. If you disagree, I suggest you take the issue up with him, rather than me. [/QUOTE] I missed the “anti” prefix in your post. Sorry! ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/18 "2007-05-30T20:26:53Z")
No worries. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/19 "2007-05-30T20:47:37Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Why is Putin so paranoid? the USA has helped him out, many times..and the high oil prices (Russia is now the #1 oil producer) has provided him with mountains of cash. Russia has everything in the way of raw materials-it just needs time to modernize its industrial plant. If I were Putin, I’d spend the money on new highways and housing-how many ICBMs DO you need? [/QUOTE] The biggest problem Putin faces is that nearly all of the former Soviet Bloc countries are now clamoring to join NATO. So NATO has, in effect, encircled Russia. Plus, Russia has ongoing disputes with countries like Georgia, Ukraine, and Chechnya, and increased USA/NATO involvement in these countries can only complicate things from Russia’s perspective. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042/20 "2007-05-30T20:54:09Z")
[QUOTE=toadspittle] The biggest problem Putin faces is that nearly all of the former Soviet Bloc countries are now clamoring to join NATO. [/QUOTE] Most of them, in fact, [already have](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nato#Current_members) – including the former Soviet republics of Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-reignites-cold-war/406042.md?page=2)