# Putin: "The Molotov - Ribbentrop Pact was okay . . . the UK and the US caused WWII" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 7, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008 "2014-11-07T19:55:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/41 "2014-11-09T02:55:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The battleground at present is Eastern Europe – and what vital interests does the West have there anyway? Voters? The US’s ex-Eastern Europeans settled here and had large families who will vote against anybody who allows Putin to fuck around with the Old Country. Does Chicago still have the second-largest Polish population outside Warsaw? And I was in our Ukrainian Village this afternoon and last week it was the heavily-Czech Berwyn. A funny thing about our “melting pot” is that many American individuals have loyalties and affections for _several_ Old Countries. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/42 "2014-11-09T03:19:23Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Unfortunately that piece was just some glurge to promo his full length book on the subject: [_Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill,_Hitler_and_the_Unnecessary_War). Rather more depressingly, the book debuted at sixteenth place on The New York Times best-seller list. If I had to pick between ignoramus, troll, or closet Nazi, I’d have to go with closet Nazi. Why are you shocked? In his biography Right From the Beginning, he bragged his three favorite heroes were Joe McCarthy, Douglas MacCarthur and Francisco Franco. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/43 "2014-11-09T05:30:15Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > More seriously, I do remember that Churchill wanted a war with the USSR after WWII, but less known is that he also had wanted it before WWII too. \*\*When the Russians did attack Finland in 1938 \*\*Churchill (then the British First Lord of Admiralty) wanted to intervene in favor of Finland, (He claimed that the intervention would not lead to war with the USSR :dubious:, but that attempt told Stalin to make alliances elsewhere) in the end Finland ended the war with Russia by conceding territory and the Allies did not had time or could not organize to send equipment or troops there. Actually [the Winter War was 1939/40](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War). Churchill as always had another agenda, which was Swedish iron ore (ie Narvik). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/44 "2014-11-09T05:41:26Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Actually [the Winter War was 1939/40](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War). Churchill as always had another agenda, which was Swedish iron ore (ie Narvik). Churchill may have hated the Commies, but he always kept his eye on the Nazi ball. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/45 "2014-11-09T06:18:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Churchill may have hated the Commies, but he always kept his eye on the Nazi ball. IIRC Churchill claimed that the moves England was and attempting to do in Finland and other Scandinavian nations would “kill 2 birds with one stone”. IMHO England taking on both Germany and the USSR would had been really foolish. Well **Askance** , I did get the incorrect year because I was remembering the date when [England was attempting to become a supplier of military aid to Finland in the last months of 1938](http://books.google.com/books?id=wTZ-AgAAQBAJ&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=1938+finland+churchill&source=bl&ots=0Xmj3JHdwt&sig=7XRXZQJF_LnivdFJQVIBHIrJMVA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uANfVMX6GY6rjAK9kYCIBA&ved=0CD8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=1938%20finland%20churchill&f=false). The British were not able to supply Finland as promised so Finland then looked for more capable allies. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/46 "2014-11-09T08:59:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The battleground at present is Eastern Europe – and what vital interests does the West have there anyway? Have you \*seen \*Hungarian girls ? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Recusant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@Recusant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recusant)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/47 "2014-11-09T12:32:02Z")
Man, was there _ever_ a time when Russia wasn’t lead by a bonehead? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/48 "2014-11-09T14:49:55Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Have you \*seen \*Hungarian girls ? 🙂 Eh. Polish girls have them beat by a country mile. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/49 "2014-11-09T16:41:41Z")
> [@Recusant](#): > > Man, was there _ever_ a time when Russia wasn’t lead by a bonehead? I still have the pet theory that every social or economic plan adopted by the Russians is adopted quickly and then they do discredit it for all mankind in a few generations. Monarchy, Empire, democracy between the wars, socialism, comunism, capitalism, authoritarian capitalism, etc ---
**Author:** ![Recusant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@Recusant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Recusant)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/50 "2014-11-10T00:36:02Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I still have the pet theory that every social or economic plan adopted by the Russians is adopted quickly and then they do discredit it for all mankind in a few generations. > > Monarchy, Empire, democracy between the wars, socialism, comunism, capitalism, authoritarian capitalism, etc Yeah, that sounds about right. ::Sigh:: Hang in, Russians. There can only be so many bad ideas out there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/51 "2014-11-10T01:32:50Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I still have the pet theory that every social or economic plan adopted by the Russians is adopted quickly and then they do discredit it for all mankind in a few generations. > > Monarchy, Empire, democracy between the wars, socialism, comunism, capitalism, authoritarian capitalism, etc > [@Recusant](#): > > Yeah, that sounds about right. ::Sigh:: Hang in, Russians. There can only be so many bad ideas out there. Of course, that means they still have fascism to check off the list . . . ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/52 "2014-11-10T01:53:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course, that means they still have fascism to check off the list . . . ♪ He’s making a list, and checking it twice. Gonna find out who is Nazi or nice. [del]Ras[/del]Putin is coming to town… ♬ ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/53 "2014-11-10T14:07:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I would compare Russia at present to Mexico under the PRI: A quasi-democracy, dominated by one party, with rigged elections, but not quite a dictatorship. I would add that Mexico has less protectionism and better food. And that both have crazy amounts of corruption. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/54 "2014-11-11T19:35:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > BTW, [Patrick L. Smith’s analysis](http://www.salon.com/2014/11/07/the_new_york_times_doesnt_want_you_to_understand_this_vladimir_putin_speech/) of Putin’s speech actually makes Putin look rather sane and clearheaded compared to the American leadership. You can always find an American anti-imperialist who hates imperialism sooooooo much they’re willing to clap and cheer any imperialist anywhere in the world as long as that imperialist isn’t an American. I think Lenin and Stalin had a name for this sort of person. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/55 "2014-11-11T22:27:20Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You can always find an American anti-imperialist who hates imperialism sooooooo much they’re willing to clap and cheer any imperialist anywhere in the world as long as that imperialist isn’t an American. > > I think Lenin and Stalin had a name for this sort of person. [Not Lenin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot), at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/56 "2014-11-12T20:48:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > FTR, it is well established from Hitler’s writings, particularly his unpublished [“Second Book”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweites_Buch), that his war-aim from the beginning, while falling well short of world conquest, was still plenty aggressive: He intended all along to destroy the nations of Poland and Russia – not merely conquer and exploit them like a colony in Africa, but to destroy them utterly as nations, and build a greater Germany on their bones, colonize their territory with Germans, exterminate the Slavs or reduce them to slavery, and make Germany into a continental-scale power like the United States. Then, in the next generation, he envisioned a final conflict with the U.S. for world domination. > > He might have succeeded, if the U.S. could have been kept out of the war. Probably has been discussed in the great questions forum, but the USSR pretty well stopped the 1941 German invasion at about the same time Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. The Russians suffered greatly and would have suffered more without US and British aid, but probably would have won eventually anyway. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/57 "2014-11-12T20:59:29Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Vladimir Putin is clearly taking lessons from the North Koreans and Baghdad Bob in how to say absurd and ridiculous stuff with straight faces. Let’s not forget Orwell and Karl Rove. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/58 "2014-11-12T21:02:09Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > The mind boggles. > > [The apogee of revisionism](http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/11/07/britain-and-france-to-blame-for-adolf-hitlers-march-into-europe-putin-tells-young-historians/). > > I am putting this is in the pit because I can’t be the only one (I hope) who wants to call Putin an asshole. > > Mr. Putin, sir, you are an asshole. Your attempt to retrospectively whitewash the egregious machinations of Stalin, and implicitly excuse the mass murders and horror that resulted from the Pact, are beyond, way beyond, the pale. That you can overlook the MR Pact and accuse the allies of ‘allowing’ Hitler to do what he did proves what so many people already know (at least outside of the sycophantic obsequious Russian population): that you are a fascist fuck. > > So, there! I’ve read that many 1930’s American pinkos were disillusioned by that treaty and dropped out of the Communist Party and various front organizations in droves. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008/59 "2014-11-13T03:03:39Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > I’ve read that many 1930’s American pinkos were disillusioned by that treaty and dropped out of the Communist Party and various front organizations in droves. Maybe [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=12312300#post12312300), in the second paragraph? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-the-molotov-ribbentrop-pact-was-okay-the-uk-and-the-us-caused-wwii/704008.md?page=2)