# НАШИ - Putin Youth **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2007, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974 "2007-12-06T00:38:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2007, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/21 "2007-12-19T17:03:59Z")
In Russia, youth Putin YOU! ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/22 "2007-12-20T13:32:21Z")
A post of mine from last year’s [Was invading Iraq really the worst decision in the history of U.S. foreign policy?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=399504&page=2&pp=50) > [@](#): > > I’ve got another candidate [for worst decision]: no Marshall -type plan after the fall of the Soviet Bloc. > [..] > Whilst real democratic or rule of law institutions might not have emerged in places like Russia where they don’t have old roots, they’d have had a better chance. The looting of former state assets and the failure of liberation to greatly improve most people’s lives has opened the field for the return of old authoritarian, imperial and anti-Western ways. The scary thing is that the opposition looks more influential than it really is because [Putin feels like](http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2007/12/my-answern.html) persecuting it. I think Russia’s badly politically stuck with stuff like the Putin Youth. Liberalism (broadly defined) has no real cultural roots there and is so discredited by the events following the Cold War that it is very hard to see a way out in the next few decades. And because Russia is big and rich that’s a worry well beyond its borders. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/23 "2007-12-20T14:19:20Z")
That’s all real horrorshow, my droogies. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/24 "2007-12-20T14:26:28Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] That’s all real horrorshow, my droogies. [/QUOTE] I agree. This is live action, not a newsreel from the 1930s. I remember Cold War nervousness, and the pervasive dread that hung over the world. Today’s youth may yet get a taste of it. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/25 "2007-12-20T15:04:05Z")
The sad thing is, this failed state will be used to “prove” that Democracy is a “failure”, just like the failed Weimar Republic was used as such a “proof” when it turned into Nazi Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/26 "2007-12-20T17:18:24Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] **Sal Ammoniac** , Time named Putin its Person of the Year today. I’d check out that article. While I think Putin is an autocrat and a killer, I’m not convinced he’s a Hitler or Stalin. [/QUOTE] All right, try Franco. It’s the same kind of Church-and-State fasciscm. Still bad news, whichever way you slice it. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/27 "2007-12-20T17:42:38Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] **Sal Ammoniac** , Time named Putin its Person of the Year today. I’d check out that article. While I think Putin is an autocrat and a killer, I’m not convinced he’s a Hitler or Stalin. [/QUOTE] Wasn’t Hitler named Person of the Year by Time? If so, were you making a joke? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/28 "2007-12-20T18:34:54Z")
I’ll bet Putin has secretly always wanted to bang his shoe on the table. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/29 "2007-12-20T18:41:32Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Wasn’t Hitler named Person of the Year by Time? If so, were you making a joke? -FrL- [/QUOTE] Nope, Putin is really the Man of the Year for '07. Stalin was also was a previous Person of the Year. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/30 "2007-12-20T19:02:09Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Wasn’t Hitler named Person of the Year by Time? If so, were you making a joke? [/QUOTE] Both men also received the title, and no, I was not making a joke. I wasn’t saying “He’s not Hitler because Time named him Person of the Year.” I know it’s not an honor. I was saying the article gave some good reasons (in my opinion) to believe that, while Putin is a dictator and a killer, he is not a Hitler or Stalin. Is that clearer? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/31 "2007-12-20T19:26:09Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] That’s all real horrorshow, my droogies. [/QUOTE] No probbies, oh my brother. The millicents are sure to put everything rightways. Do all Nadsat phrases sound like they’re spoken by Malcolm McDowell in your head? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/32 "2007-12-20T19:28:54Z")
According to TIME’s Q & A, he’s also a Bible-reader. A Bible-reading Russian autocrat. Nothing can go wrong there! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/33 "2007-12-20T19:48:32Z")
You mean there’s something wrong with _reading_ the Bible? Wouldn’t a person first have to read it just to even disagree with it? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/34 "2007-12-20T19:50:38Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] You mean there’s something wrong with _reading_ the Bible? Wouldn’t a person first have to read it just to even disagree with it? [/QUOTE] He might have been making a comment about ex-seminary student Josef Stalin. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/35 "2007-12-20T19:51:46Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] He might have been making a comment about ex-seminary student Josef Stalin. [/QUOTE] That was my take too, I don’t think **FriarTed** of all people, think that reading the bible is inherently a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/36 "2007-12-20T19:57:47Z")
I think we’re being just a bit too alarmist here. Russia is not going to turn into a new Soviet Union. Russia is going to turn into a new **Mexico** – as it was for most of the 20th Century: A more-or-less republic, dominated by a single entrenched political party establishment, but not a full-blown police state, military dictatorship, or revolutionary ideological regime. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/37 "2007-12-20T21:21:52Z")
Hmm… why would you think so? It’s not like Russia lacks experience in organizing an effective secret police, and packing the indiscreet off to the frozen wastes of Siberia. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/38 "2007-12-20T22:18:51Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] Hmm… why would you think so? It’s not like Russia lacks experience in organizing an effective secret police, and packing the indiscreet off to the frozen wastes of Siberia. [/QUOTE] Partly because they have no reason to be the Evil Empire again. Putin is not a Stalinist ideologue with a vision for remaking the world, he’s just a Russian leader who wants to consolidate his own power, and to remind the world that post-Communist Russia still **remains** a Great Power, and he can do all that without show trials and gulags. Partly because contemporary Russia, like Mexico under the PRI, does observe at least some of the forms of democracy and the rule of law: Elections are not run fairly, but apparently they are not total shams like elections in Hussein’s Iraq; opposition parties (the biggest one is the Communists!) are allowed to run, and under some circumstances they might win victories too overwhelming for fraud to tilt the balance. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/39 "2007-12-20T22:48:34Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Partly because they have no reason to be the Evil Empire again. [/QUOTE] No, but I bet he has his eye on the territories Russia lost. At a minimum, he wants to call the shots in all the surrounding countries. And he’s not averse to playing the pan-Slavic card and making difficulties in places like Kosovo. I see him frankly as a menace, which Mexico never was. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974/40 "2007-12-20T23:05:56Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] No, but I bet he has his eye on the territories Russia lost. At a minimum, he wants to call the shots in all the surrounding countries. And he’s not averse to playing the pan-Slavic card and making difficulties in places like Kosovo. I see him frankly as a menace, which Mexico never was. [/QUOTE] At worst, a menace like Kaiser Wilhelm, elbowing for Germany’s “place in the sun,” not like Hitler or Stalin. As for calling the shots in surrounding countries, the U.S. has been doing that throughout the Western Hemisphere, and claiming the right to do so, since the Monroe Administration, and the rest of the world has learned to live with that arrangement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putin-youth/428974.md?page=3)