"Putting God on notice" is not just arrogant, it's also foolish.

A quick search showed that the word “diamond” doesn’t appear anywhere in the page. Moreover, the thread you linked to is quite long. Why should I bother reading it? If you won’t deign to give me at least a synopsis of your argument, I have every reason to assume that you’re just trying to waste my time. (The suspicion becomes even greater when one notes that in the past, you have been willing to lie outright in order to win arguments.)

Moreover, your argument is self-evidently silly. Who in their right mind thinks that “heads I win, tails you lose” proves anything? GOM, I challenge you to prove that ID meets the criterion of Popperian falsifiability. What sort of evidence would it take to prove to you that ID is wrong? Because right now, your evidence is that if humans can’t create life, that proves ID right. And if humans can create life, that proves ID right too.

This is, of course, aside from the fact that to you, ID is just an excuse to believe whatever you please. If someone wants to argue common descent, for example, you just wave your hands and say that humans can’t create life, and life is too complicated to have happened by chance, so that proves that God created all “kinds” using precisely the schedule that you want him to. I have never, ever seen you justify your belief in special creation, even when directly challenged on the subject. So I challenge you now: assuming, for the sake of argument, that ID is true, prove that God used separate creation rather than common descent.

I suggest you start by explaining retrogenes.

And long things cannot teach us something?

Ten second summary:

Life is technology. High technology. Much higher than human biotechnologists are capable of.

Diamonds contain no programming. No information. No capability to reproduce.

Your analogy is fatally flawed. If a creationist had offered such a comparison they would be laughed off this board.

HTH

**

Have you read my FAQ, GOM? You said you would.

**

So the criterion of Popperian falsifiability doesn’t apply when technology is involved? I don’t see why I should read a lengthy rendition of your handwaving “life is soooooo complicated” argument when you still haven’t resolved- or even acknowledged- the fatal fallacy at its core.

I have a PhD in molecular biology, for Pete’s sake- I already know that life is complicated. I wrote a FAQ to explain how that complexity was produced by evolution, but you aren’t interested in hearing the other side’s evidence.

Funny, I don’t remember being laughed off the Pizza Parlor when I presented it there.

It seems to me that the term “information” in reference to biological complexity may be a somewhat loaded term, insofar as we are generally accustomed to speaking of information as a form of intentional communication. If a veteranarian

Opps, meant to hit spell check and hit submit instead. Silly, silly me.

Anyhoo, if a veterinarian examines monkey poo, they might find an enormous amount of “information” about the animal’s diet, metabolism, general health, etc. That doesn’t mean that the monkey was trying to send a message.

By the way, I had a look at GOM’s link to the International Society for Complexity, Information and Design. Interesting site. I note that the organization’s motto is, “Retraining the Scientific Imagination to See Purpose in Nature.”

Anyone but me find that motto faintly Orwellian?

I’ve received a request for the URL of my FAQ, so here it is:

http://psyche11.home.mindspring.com/ben/WritingIndex.htm

The FAQ I referred to above is the molecular genetics FAQ. There’s also a rough draft abiogenesis FAQ which is also relevant, even though I haven’t quite finished it. It’s not on my webpage, but I tend to post it to discussion forums when the topic comes up:

http://thebruces.stormbirds.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5425&perpage=15&highlight=tooth%20fairy&pagenumber=6

(You’ll have to scroll partway down the page to see it- I posted there as “tardigrade.” Incidentally, the thread involves the “stumper questions” from the molecular genetics FAQ. Needless to say, none of the creationists could answer them.)
GOM, the situation here is pretty simple. We each have our stumper questions:

GOM: how could life’s programming have evolved without intelligent design?

Ben: how do you answer the 11 stumper questions? (For example, how do you explain the properties of retrogenes.)
I’ve given a detailed answer to your stumper question, but as far as I can tell you’ve never even read it. You certainly don’t acknowledge it.

Meanwhile, you’ve never answered- or even, IIRC, attempted to answer- a single one of my stumper questions.

Could the abject failure of your pseudoscience be any more clear?

Yet.
And we have our tin brains to help us…


Frankly I find that almost impossible to believe after seeing your diamonds/life comparison. But taking the risk of accepting a message board claim from an unknown person, I pray that someday you will see what should be obvious to anyone who takes a serious look at the facts. With more knowledge comes more responsibility.

Peace.

Wait just a minute!

When did they pass out the upgrades???

:smiley:

Hey GOM are you blind? Can you read? Do you really think smugly avoiding the questions put to you is going to do anything for your credibility? You know it doesn’t matter if he really has a PhD or not; that has nothing to do with the substance of his questions. You creationists love to play science, but when it comes right down to it you start pulling a lekatt.

I’ll say, Azazel. The score thus far:

GOM says that life is high technology which could not have evolved, and demands an intelligent designer.

Ben rebuts GOM’s argument with a molecular genetics FAQ explaining in detail how life evolved without ID.

GOM says that life is high technology which could not have evolved, and demands an intelligent designer.

Ben points out that he already knows that, because, after all, he has a PhD in the subject. Won’t GOM please reply to the FAQ which Ben wrote about molecular genetics, which he learned about when he got his PhD?

GOM declares that it’s hard to believe that Ben has a PhD, since if he did, then it would be obvious that life is high technology which could not have evolved, and demands an intelligent designer.
Watch this, Azazel. It always gets him into a tizzy:

Hey GOM- is there any evidence for abiogenesis? Yes or no?

While we’re at it, let’s recap the questions that GOM has been weaselling out of:

1.) Explain how ID meets the criterion of Popperian falsifiability.

2.) Have you, or have you not read the FAQs (molecular genetics and abiogenesis) as you said you would?

3.) How do you defend your belief in special creation as opposed to common descent?

4.) Why do the calculated phylogenetic trees (ie “family trees”) of orthologous proteins agree with the pattern of relationships between species which evolutionists claim to have reconstructed from the fossil record? Why do unrelated proteins serve similar functions in cases where evolutionists claim that those functions evolved independently in the fossil record? (For example, odorant binding proteins in vertebrates and insects, and lens crystallins in vertebrates and molluscs.)

5.) Why does the arrangement of genes and pseudogenes in the hemoglobin clusters correlate with their calculated phylogenetic trees?

6.) Why are similar functions sometimes served by completely different proteins? Why are completely different functions sometimes served by similar proteins?

7.) Why do retrogenes lack introns, and have a poly-A tail? Why are they sometimes cut short? Why are they flanked by repeat sequences which are characteristic of transposons and other inserted sequences?

8.) Why do pseudogenes exist? How do you explain their observed features?

9.) Why do transposons exist? Why do some transposons carry pseudogenes for transposases?

10.) Why do introns exist? How do you explain their observed features?

11.) Why are exons predominantly of class 1-1? Why is exon class conserved when particular exons appear over and over again in different proteins?

12.) Why do pseudoexons exist?

13.) Why do we see the observed mutation rates (creationists might prefer to think of them as “observed number of differences”) for different classes of genetic information? Why do pseudogenes differ between species roughly as much as introns and fourfold degenerate sites do, while protein coding genes differ much less?

14.) Why do amino acids on the outside of proteins show higher mutation rates (or observed differences, if you prefer) than amino acids in the hydrophobic core or active sites of proteins?
And while we’re at it, let me ask this:

GOM, you love to present gene regulatory networks as proof of design. Do you feel that this applies to viruses, too- that the gene regulatory networks of, say, retroviruses are a “technology” that had to be designed?

Ben - You should have read the thread title more carefully:

“Putting GOM on notice” is not just arrogant, it’s also foolish.

That’s pretty funny- especially considering that once GOM tried to win an argument with me by just telling me over and over to quit arguing with God.

While I certainly sympathise, I fail to see how the intellectual designs of a constructed being can threaten an omnicient being with the power to create the universe. As I have stated before, if there is no God then this is all really academic. Not that academics have no place in this world of course.

If there is a God, and He created the universe according to His divine will then presumably this was done for a purpose and was planned, and again, I fail to see how it could possibly fail to achieve it’s designed purpose.

If the discussion were to fall into the category of moral debate over the rightness of altering genes for our own purposes, then it would fail to meet any objective course except perhaps a vote, as there are no concrete tools for defining morality without God, and even with God there is always room for discussion.

I, personally, would reject the possibility of an action of mankind violating a divine plan.

GOM, you’ve opened yourself up here to an argument that can’t be won or lost. Given that mankind will continue to progress into the genetic age, I have always thought it’s best to pray that as we take steps in determining our own evolution, those that do so will have the wisdom to step in the right direction.
In the mean time smile, wave, and say, “Good luck with those genes, fellas!”

Ben, what would you recommend for a layman on the topics you mentioned? (Sort of a quick start guide)

As a quick guide, I’d suggest the molecular genetics FAQ on my webpage, linked to above. Talk.origins also has some FAQs on the subject, such as (IIRC) “Plagiarized Errors and Molecular Genetics.”

I wish I could suggest a popular book on molecular genetics, but I haven’t had occasion to read any, since I got everything out of the textbooks I cite at the end of my FAQ. The Selfish Gene doesn’t go into the same kind of detail as my FAQ does, but it does make a nice case for evolution occurring at the level of the gene, with all sorts of interesting examples. (And, in the aggregate, it ends up making a nice case for evolution, since too many of Dawkins’ examples are explained too well by evolution, and not at all by creationist handwaving.)

If you want a good book on how the “programming of life” could have evolved, I’d suggest Valentino Braitenburg’s Vehicles. He basically shows how you can go step-by-step from very simple robots (for example, one which simply drives straight ahead at all times) and gradually add more and more functionality, one step at a time, to get enormously complex behaviors. Obviously he can’t trace it step by step all the way to the human brain, but he has some nice theorizing about general principles of how brain function evolved. Much of what he said is also relevant to gene regulatory networks, although I don’t remember if he explicitly makes that point.

So, GOM, I couldn’t help but notice that you’re repeating your usual God-of-the-Gaps handwaving inthis thread.

Are you going to answer the questions, are are you just going to escalate to Weasel Level 2 and switch threads?

Although I admit I haven’t read half of the posts here it seems to me that GOM would do very well to try a career in politics. Although at some point his/her (or maybe its) career would certainly end in some huge reputation destroying scandal (probably in about a week or so).

Indeed…

Please refresh my memory. Which journal is your “proof” published in? I’m extremely busy, but even if you are not a PhD I think I would make the time to read your peer-reviewed article.

Thanks.

GOM, are you actually going to respond to me rebuttals? Ever? Or are you just going to be snotty?

Where should I begin in addressing your last post?

1.) I never claimed my rebuttal was published in a journal.

2.) It’s not as though any journal would bother to publish my rebuttal to some creationist I met on the internet.

3.) You already said you would read my FAQ, so why back out now?

4.) Why not turn your double standard around? Where are your peer-reviewed journal articles?

5.) If you had actually read my FAQ, you’d notice a little thing called a bibliography.

I don’t know, GOM- does this kind of thing impress fundamentalist Christians? When you act all sanctimonious and ignore people’s arguments, do they pat you on the back and tell you that you did a great job? That would certainly explain a lot about the caliber of your religion.

Time to step into the Pit, GOM.