# Putting Prisoners to Work: Slavery or Not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2000, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putting-prisoners-to-work-slavery-or-not/17742 "2000-03-09T02:05:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putting-prisoners-to-work-slavery-or-not/17742/61 "2000-03-13T22:30:00Z")
{{Road work is not for the major killers, who might escape but it is certainly fine for those who did little things like bank robbery, rape, beat someone into the hospital or snatched purses. }} Rape is a little thing? I’ve been the attempted victim of a rapist twice. I would NOT want a rapist out in society, even in such a supervised setting. Rapists are dangerous, and do not see other people as people. Personally, I’d like to see someone develop People Chow, a nutritionally complete food. We could serve this to prisoners and hand it out to anyone else who wants it (thus eliminating most of the food stamp needs). Prisoners should be kept in reasonably good condition, by which I mean that they have adequate nourishing food, adequate hygiene, and a chance for remedial education. If they want extras, let them work for privileges. For instance, watching TV could cost a certain number of points, gym time could cost a number of points, more interesting meals than People Chow would cost a few points, whatever. The prisoners would not be paid in cash money, but only in points, which might also be redeemed (depending on the sentencing) for early release. Lynn I’ve got all the right answers, why doesn’t anyone consult ME? ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putting-prisoners-to-work-slavery-or-not/17742/62 "2000-03-14T05:28:00Z")
**sake:** I wriggle helplessly in the inexorable grasp of your inexorable logic! But really, you’re constructing a _false analogy_. Self defense and capital punishment have a significant difference: The immediacy of the threat and the paucity of options. When capital punishment is imposed on a prisoner, they are at that point no threat to ordinary people. Therefore, there is no justification for self defense at that point. To sum up, I can approve of self defense and disapprove of capital punishment without contradiction. On to the next round of “Name that Fallacy?” * * * Against stupidity the very gods / Themselves contend in vain. ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putting-prisoners-to-work-slavery-or-not/17742/63 "2000-03-14T05:30:00Z")
Why is it that I can see misspellings, awkward phrasing, punctuation errors etc. instantly on seeing my post in the forum, yet I never can when I double-check the text in the edit box? Sigh… A lovely quip, ruined, just ruined! ---
**Author:** ![Moonshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@Moonshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonshine)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putting-prisoners-to-work-slavery-or-not/17742/64 "2000-03-14T12:19:00Z")
Occam, what we do with our prisoners is a reflection of us; they are criminals and don’t deserve to live the life of Riley , but neither are they sub-human beings. If they decide that they don’t want to live by the rules that the rest of us live by then they will be punished. If they are dangerous they will have to be kept away from the rest of us, too. However, just because they ignore our moral code or whatever you want to call it doesn’t give us an excuse to be vengeful and ignore it too; it is our’s after all and we are sending people to jail for not living by it. Monty: "Not overly familiar with the document which created our government here in the United States; now, are you, Moonshine? Please enlighten us with your definition of the word “servitude.” Actually I am familiar with the document Monty so please don’t patronise me; my point is that a criminal’s punishment is finite and to add more and more on top of that just because it feels good is wrong. I agree entirely with you that teaching them a skill they can use outside is a good thing, but hard labour and road gangs are hardly useful. Give them something a bit more constructive, if they don’t want the job then let them sit in their tiny cells for 23h a day, vegetating, thinking of what they could be doing right now if they hadn’t broken the law . Maytbe this will not make them any different when they come out, and maybe they will go and commit the same crime that they went down for in the first place, but that is a part of the price we all pay to live in a society where the individual has the right to make his own decisions, even if they stink and make other people suffer. Finally “…you might want to note, the Fire Department doesn’t produce a whole lot of income either. But the cities…certainly have found them to be worth the expense of operating them.” Erm, yes, but then the Fire Service isn’t supposed to make money is it Monty, it is supposed to put out fires. ---
**Author:** ![Sentinel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sentinel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sentinel)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putting-prisoners-to-work-slavery-or-not/17742/65 "2000-03-14T15:12:00Z")
**OK, sorry, rape is not a minor crime. Poor choice of words, but I was considering crimes which involve killing as more serious.** As for prisoners being charged for their own support, it can and is being done in most places. The law requires that any prisoner choosing to or being required to work get paid a stipend. I think it ranges from 40 cents to $1.00 an hour. Most prisoners voluntarily do work in the prison to obtain spending money, which is placed in an account for them and used to buy ‘luxury’ things with, like candy, snacks, smokes – (I don’t know about that anymore) – and some magazines. I do know that, locally, prisoners in the jail are charged $50 a month for their support, though most do not have the opportunity to work it off. After being let loose, they are required to pay this accumulated amount back, as much as a prisoner is often required to pay a fine. In the past, programs where prisoners were required to work, in general, were quite productive. Of course, there were abuses of this program by corrupt officials and sadistic guards. Currently there are several prisons where they grow their own vegetables and have dramatically cut down on State expense for the support of the prison, plus prisoners who worked daily were discovered to be less disruptive and violent when back in the cell blocks. A current chain gang being used in one of the other States for roadwork is much different from the old fashioned form and many of the prisoners are not at all happy with it. Most, when interviewed, wanted to be back in the prison going to classes and things – which they claimed would help them on the outside. They virtually demanded this, which, to me, seemed to indicate that they felt justified in not only doing the crime that got them where they were because of their inadequacies, but felt that the prison SHOULD provide them with an easier alternative. Granted, many repeat offenders do not think like a normal person, but that is no reason why we need to keep paying for their upkeep. So, make them work. A previous poster stated that once a prisoner got beyond the age of 35, he tended to settle down, which is correct. This has been observed in most cases. Still, if they do the crime, let the work off some of the cost. The days of Alcatraz are over, in that we now have newer, more sophisticated prisons, like Wapole (from which no one has ever escaped) electronically run. It also has been observed that in most cases, prisoners forced to work, if they commit a crime after being released, have petitioned NOT to go back to the prison they had to work at. So, if one makes all prisons places where one has to work, the criminals might think two or three times before committing a crime again. PLUS, if a prison is earning money, then those funds can be used to increase the pay of the guards, which will draw in not only a better form of guard but provide money for even more of them. I’m a reasonably normal person. I would hate to be jailed. I would even hate to have to do Community Service – wearing those vests that tell the world you did wrong. I would be humiliated. Criminals do not feel that way about things, so they cannot be treated like normal people. I have known some real nice crooks! Really cool people who have hearts of gold, but they think nothing of stealing a car, breaking into a house, dealing a little dope or shop lifting. None of the ones I’ve met are even smart enough to bank or invest their ill gotten gain in an effort to not have to steal again. To many criminals, they _like_ stealing for a living and hate having regular jobs. Many are so filled with hate that they are of the opinion that they have the _RIGHT_to take what they want from others. These criminals need to be forced to work. They need to be taught through not just work but education that such an attitude is not acceptable. A crook can be worked either 8 to 10 hours a day and still have time to attend classes afterwards. Or they can be worked every other day and attend classes on days they don’t work. There **are** acceptable compromises. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putting-prisoners-to-work-slavery-or-not/17742/66 "2000-03-14T20:47:00Z")
I’ve no problem making prisoners work at all,that’s what I do,but having been made redundant because of unfair competition I’m also painfully aware that subsidised business is unfair to law abiders. Prisoners doing work to provide goods and services for prisons themselves is fine,charity packing work fine too,crap jobs no-one wants fine but I think that competing on the open market against regular folk is not. We use work in jail as a form of security cause it gives 'em less time to make trouble Rehab,training and education are fine too but I’ve noticed many inmates prefer to toss it off and use these as the perfect excuse to do sod-all. The bosses wanted me to try train some of them as skilled men but it takes many years to get to a safe acceptable standard and that’s if you are motivated and have a reasonable level of education. Anyway stuff them!!I had to pay and go to night classes and take low training wages to get my skill these guys had the same chance, let them learn how to mop & clean plenty of them can’t even find the soapdish god alone knows how they live at home in their filth.:mad ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putting-prisoners-to-work-slavery-or-not/17742/67 "2000-03-14T22:13:00Z")
**Moonshine:** You and I seem to agree on many points. However I do disagree with your statement: > [@](#): > > Maytbe this will not make them any different when they come out, and maybe they will go and commit the same crime that they went down for in the first place… Part of the what distorts the debate is the concept of letting violent prisoners **out** in the first place. The punishment advocates say, “if we really torment them, then when they get out, they will be too fearful to commit more crime.” I say, however, if we treat them like human beings, there’s no real compulsion to let them out at all. We also don’t have to worry about fine gradations of criminality. If the crime is seriously violent, they’re going to be incarcerated until they can damn well _prove_ they’re no longer a threat to other people. * * * Against stupidity the very gods / Themselves contend in vain. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2000, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putting-prisoners-to-work-slavery-or-not/17742/68 "2000-03-14T23:22:00Z")
[quote] Originally posted by Moonshine: Monty: "Not overly familiar with the document which created our government here in the United States; now, are you, Moonshine? Please enlighten us with your definition of the word “servitude.” Actually I am familiar with the document Monty so please don’t patronise me; my point is that a criminal’s punishment is finite and to add more and more on top of that just because it feels good is wrong. [quote] Three things: (1) Evidently not, (2) I didn’t patronize you, & (3) the document in question specifically provides for capital punishment as part of the consequences of a crime. Now, you could agitate to have the constitution amended; that might work. > [@](#): > > Finally “…you might want to note, the Fire Department doesn’t produce a whole lot of income either. But the cities…certainly have found them to be worth the expense of operating them.” Erm, yes, but then the Fire Service isn’t supposed to make money is it Monty, it is supposed to put out fires.\*\* Silly of me. I wasn’t aware that the essential purpose of the prisons was to be a cash cow. I thought they were there for punishment and rehabilitation. Thanks for teaching me something new. **THAT JUST ABOVE IS PATRONISING YOU AND YOU DESERVED IT THIS TIME!** ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2000, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putting-prisoners-to-work-slavery-or-not/17742/69 "2000-03-16T21:05:00Z")
Here’s how unfair competition from prison labour really works. Nearish to me is,or was, a mushroom growing and packing plant employing about 70 workers mostly women ,mostly part-time.It got bought out and new less favourable pay & benefits were imposed ,result-strike.New owners are not going to be dictated to so they sack the lot replace with scab labour. So far so bad.Next a nearby prison needing cash because of budget cuts,I think you can see whats coming…(scab labour sacked) Result prison grows & packs mushrooms gets cash ,most happy.Company gets higher profit margin plus no holidays ,sick pay or pensions to pay for,most happy.Prisoners get an extra £10 a week ,most happy. Actually everyone is so happy they are going to expand probably putting more folk out of work so why don’t I feel happy? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2000, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putting-prisoners-to-work-slavery-or-not/17742/70 "2000-03-16T21:09:00Z")
Here’s how unfair competition from prison labour really works. Nearish to me is,or was, a mushroom growing and packing plant employing about 70 workers mostly women ,mostly part-time.It got bought out and new less favourable pay & benefits were imposed ,result-strike.New owners are not going to be dictated to so they sack the lot replace with scab labour. So far so bad.Next a nearby prison needing cash because of budget cuts,I think you can see whats coming…(scab labour sacked) Result prison grows & packs mushrooms gets cash ,most happy.Company gets higher profit margin plus no holidays ,sick pay or pensions to pay for,most happy.Prisoners get an extra £10 a week ,most happy. Actually everyone is so happy they are going to expand probably putting more folk out of work so why don’t I feel happy? ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2000, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putting-prisoners-to-work-slavery-or-not/17742/71 "2000-03-16T22:51:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Lynn Bodoni: > **Personally, I’d like to see someone develop People Chow, a nutritionally complete food. We could serve this to prisoners and hand it out to anyone else who wants it (thus eliminating most of the food stamp needs).** I have a better name for it: _Soylent Green_. 😉 BTW: In the original novel, _Make Room, Make Room_, Soylent Green was not made from people. It was made from **soy** beans and **lent** ils, and was supposed to taste horrible. (I can imagine!) * * * When all else fails, ask Cecil. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2000, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putting-prisoners-to-work-slavery-or-not/17742/72 "2000-03-17T00:25:00Z")
Here’s another debate on this subject I found while the board was down (again): [http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001242.html](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001242.html) * * * When all else fails, ask Cecil. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/putting-prisoners-to-work-slavery-or-not/17742.md?page=3)