# Puzzled by transgender bathroom laws. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 17, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498 "2016-04-17T20:00:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/221 "2016-04-28T21:43:19Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > So, forcing transgender people to use the restroom of their birth is supposed to stop drug trafficking and prostitution now? Explain how. > > Can’t you just admit that your only view on this is that transgender people are icky and you want them to go away, and stop pretending that there is any validity behind your reasons for supporting these laws? Yeah, I’m wondering where he’s going with this too. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/222 "2016-04-28T22:55:45Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > if not a common trough where everyone gathers around to pee. Now THAT’S fucking disgusting. I would think something like that would motivate a guy to try and sneak into the lady’s room more than some need to spy on people. :eek: (closest I could get to a barfing smiley) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2016, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/223 "2016-04-28T23:05:46Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Una over in the debate thread you used the phrase “use the bathroom they present as”. Which is pretty much what I was saying with use… “whichever bathroom is the least disruptive and upsetting”. It’s the same idea. dressed like a woman then use the woman’s bathroom. Dressed like a guy then use the guy’s restroom. As has been already pointed out, that is EXACTLY THE SITUATION before this idiotic law was put into place. Now, a person who looks exactly like a woman, and is dressed as a woman, and is going through life as a woman (but has “male” on her birth certificate) is REQUIRED BY LAW to use the men’s room. So you support this law… but then you disagree with the law entirely. As it stands, the ONLY THING this law will accomplish is to enable bigoted assholes the ability to decide that they are PERSONALLY OFFENDED by how someone looks or dresses, and use that as an excuse to call the police on them. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/224 "2016-04-29T00:56:32Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Una over in the debate thread you used the phrase “use the bathroom they present as”. Which is pretty much what I was saying with use… “whichever bathroom is the least disruptive and upsetting”. It’s the same idea. dressed like a woman then use the woman’s bathroom. Dressed like a guy then use the guy’s restroom. How should this apply to people who are not transgender? If a masculine looking women goes to use the ladies room what should happen? Do you stop her and say mam your wearing a lumberjack shirt you must go to the men’s room? The last guy I dated could pass as a woman. His wardrobe includes women’s clothing as it fits well. He identifies as a man and is certainly male. If someone mistakes him as a women does he have to go pee outside or something? ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/225 "2016-04-29T01:41:40Z")
> [@](#): > > f you aren’t aware of crime at roadside park bathrooms then you haven’t been watching your local news. Going back even 25 years the cops were making drug busts at Interstate rest stops twenty miles from my house. Prostitutes were working those areas and undercover cops were catching people getting bj’s in the restrooms. They announced arrests several times on my local news. They even closed the Interstate rest stop bathrooms several times and reopened them later. This was long before the transgender issue became common in society. That adds yet another concern for bathroom security. > > Heck a US Senator got caught in a bathroom glory hole. So yes security in bathrooms is a concern. Don’t try and pretend it’s not a problem. what does that have to do with this issue? It all happened in the men’s room, and it was all consensual. I personally don’t think buying drugs or bjs should even be a crime, but I do hope they used the stalls for the bjs so weary travelers simply trying to empty their bladders didn’t have to see that when they walked in. That has nothing to do with men dressing like women and sneaking into the woman’s room in order to attack women, which is what people claim to be worried about. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/226 "2016-04-29T02:16:18Z")
I’m still wondering about all the children hanging out in the bathroom where \*\*aceplace57 \*\*works and changes his clothes. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/227 "2016-04-29T04:30:58Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Yes I know women sit down to pee. :rolleyes: So what. Its still a 30 second body function. My wife usually doesn’t bother closing the door at home for that. Maybe she does at public restroom. I’ve never asked. > > Maybe we can solve the mystery of why women go to the restroom in pairs too. Never fails if you’re with a group at a restaurant. They usually leave in pairs or even 3 ladies head for the restroom. I think Snopes did an article it. Of course we close the stall door. The half-open door is the universal signal for “unoccupied,” so if you don’t, someone else will walk in and hit you in the face with it. I have never, ever seen a woman go into a stall and not close the door and lock it. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/228 "2016-04-29T04:33:57Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > :rolleyes: :rolleyes: > > Give me a break. Of course I’m aware of a kids eyeline. I raised two of them. You gotta be careful to put on a robe late at night or very early in the morning. > > I guess this is an issue we’ll have to agree to disagree. **I’m not comfortable with guys in the women’s bathroom.** Even if they do insist on calling themselves women. That may change in a few years after this alternative lifestyle gets more common. I sure as heck won’t be bullied into thinking otherwise right now. > > You think differently. We’re both entitled to our own opinions and we should respect others that don’t agree with us. I see some valid points in this discussion and maybe in a few years I’ll agree with you. Unless you frequent womens’ bathrooms, your comfort level is completely irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/229 "2016-04-29T21:48:59Z")
Thomas Jefferson wrote long ago that “Ignorance of the law is not an excuse…[because then] the laws would lose their effect because [such ignorance] can always be pretended.” From the arguments I’ve seen amongst the extremely religious (Christian\*) opponents of acceptance of transgender people in the populace, the argument they’re trying to sell is that any male pervert# with intentions to go into the women’s restroom and do something perverse (masturbate, or expose himself, or somehow interact with an unwilling female) could do so and, if caught in the ‘wrong’ restroom and questioned, would be able to (falsely) invoke a _transgender restroom choice_ law in order to avoid arrest, prosecution, etc. Furthermore, even if a male pervert# was caught, arrested, prosecuted, etc. the damage to his victim(s) would already have scarred said victim(s) for life. Therefore, the argument goes, such a loophole must never be made available lest the perverts abuse it in order to abuse our women. As for this controversy in general, I believe it was Irving Goffman who recognized in the early 1960’s that the indicators and expressions of gender are very much social constructs. In the confines of one’s home any person is free to wear whatever garments or undergarments he/she/it desires and in most homes there is no specific restroom designated for men or women – either can use whichever is most convenient. It is only in public venues that we find gender-separated facilities for dispatching the remains of our food consumption and only when encountering others do we risk censure, ridicule, and violent reactions for wearing clothing or accessories designated for the other gender. Furthermore, the gender-association of many accessories has changed over time. –G! \*It is not the least bit surprising that these laws come from extreme monotheists who are, ultimately, trying desperately to stave off the demise of their hegemony by legislating against elements they see as a threat. In this case, the roots of their mythology postulate that the knowledge of (or ability to distinguish between) good and evil began with the distinction of gender and its differences, after which the rest of the perfect paradise fell to pieces and the universe has never been so wonderful. In addition to defending the maxim that there are only two possible genders (male and female) this kind of legislation also attempts to enforce the credo that God Makes No Mistakes and, therefore, one’s gender identity, genitalia, and sexual preference MUST BE accepted as defined at birth and any unwillingness to stick with God’s personal decision regarding those individual characteristics is automatically a sin–which must be prevented either by force or legislation. #I find it interesting and ironic that the perpetrators of these convoluted arguments most frequently tend to frame their slippery slope arguments in terms of protecting the women (and children) from the horrible deeds of immoral men. This is the type of argument in defense of purdah, the practice of making women conduct their lives out of the sight of men “because men just can’t control themselves” around women whose gender dimorphic features are visible. It would seem to me to be an easier approach to simply decree and enforce a “Everyone: You will be severely punished, to the point of having to live to regret it, if you abuse someone.” But perhaps that’s just me lacking a full enough appreciation for religion. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2016, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/230 "2016-04-30T01:38:47Z")
> [@](#): > > frequently tend to frame their slippery slope arguments in terms of protecting the women (and children) from the horrible deeds of immoral men. This is the type of argument in defense of purdah, the practice of making women conduct their lives out of the sight of men “because men just can’t control themselves” around women whose gender dimorphic features are visible. yup. these laws, made by men and for men, don’t make any sense because well, they don’t. Don’t men feel any kind of shame that they “can’t control themselves” and therefore we have to enact all these laws that punish their victims? ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/231 "2016-05-01T07:02:45Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Very young kids are often upset or confused by ordinary life. Those are teachable moments: when they happen, your job as a parent is not to shield them, but rather to reassure them that what’s happening, even if it’s new to their realm of experience, is harmless and nothing to be worried about. That’s true whether it’s a doctor touching your son’s penis for legitimate medical reasons, or your daughter seeing a person in the women’s bathroom who looks a little different from the women she’s seen so far in her life - regardless of whether that person is immensely fat, or one-legged, or dresses in conventionally male clothing, or looks like she has unusually broad shoulders and a bad case of five-o’clock shadow. > > Moreover, there are very young kids out there who themselves have gender identity issues; preventing them from using the bathroom they most identify with them is going to make them _very_ upset. Also keep in mind that very young kids have incredibly plastic, adaptable brains. It’s how they learn language, learn to walk, learn that fire is hot. They are quite capable of understanding that “boys clothes” and “girls clothes” are arbitrary categories and nothing bad happens if you don’t follow the “rules.” You only have to be willing to teach them that. In my experience, very young kids take their cues about what is “upsetting” from adults. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/232 "2016-05-03T02:12:48Z")
Here’s something that I just thought of that puzzles me about bathroom law advocates: why do they always say they’re concerned about someone specifically harassing people in the “opposite sex” bathroom? As the other side points out, that’s so clearly a crime that the law has nothing to do with it! If they were smart, they’d tell tales of men going into the women’s bathroom and behaving himself, never doing anything illegal… Sure, he’s LOOKING and COMPLIMENTING women, but those aren’t illegal! It seems to me that going for the creepy vibe would be more effective than evoking straight out crimes when doing so is so easily answered. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/233 "2016-05-03T03:02:40Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Very young kids are often upset or confused by ordinary life. Those are teachable moments: when they happen, your job as a parent is not to shield them, but rather to reassure them that what’s happening, even if it’s new to their realm of experience, is harmless and nothing to be worried about. Yup. My daughter and I listen to NPR on the way to school most mornings. I sometimes turn the story off if it’s too terrifying: ISIL beheadings, sexual assaults of kidnap victims, Trump winning another primary, that sort of thing. But bathroom issues? She asked me about it; I explained the law; she said, “But that’s **horrible**!” and we talked about local groups trying to verturn HB2. If there were a kid who transitioned at her school, she’d ask me some questions about it, and move on with her life. Kids often get things quickly that grownups take years to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/234 "2016-05-03T05:43:13Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > The problem is, we have people who are going to present androgynously, even those who are not transgender in the least. A woman with a short haircut who’s wearing women’s jeans and a generic flannel top might be questioned in either bathroom. But more so if they don’t “pass” as well as a non-transgender woman. Why should we be concerned, worried about, or terrified of being arrested if some fainting goat of a person decides someone doesn’t fit the gender binary well enough to their liking? My cousin Dee has wider shoulders than my brother Jay and needs a bra like a bull does. Bimba Bosé is a cis woman, but put her in anything which doesn’t emphasize the femaleness and she could be a boy. I know a woman who wears her hair very short, has less curves than Bimba and sounds like she’s been having glass for breakfast; people tend to get a relieved look when they hear her evidently-female name. Any of them could have trouble going into the female bathroom in NC, under this law. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/235 "2016-05-03T14:18:28Z")
The store I worked in had a temporary worker over the holidays" androgynous name, looks and voice. I had to ask the manger privately and very softly “That’s a female (name), right?” Two other workers ask me about this, and one worker flatly refused to believe she was a she. “What? No way! I don’t think she started off as a she.” Well, deal with it. Excellent worker, and if you don’t like going in the ladies room when she’s in there, don’t. ETA: One local library had signs on their single use bathroom that “This bathroom is for use for women only” and a corresponding one onethe men’s room. I notice the signs have been taken down. ---
**Author:** ![Why\_Child](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b782af/32.png) [@Why\_Child](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Why_Child)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/236 "2016-05-05T08:19:51Z")
> [@carnut](#): > > … I’ve never seen an adult displaying uglies in the women’s room ever. > [@Leaffan](#): > > Uglies? It’s that bad, huh? Leaffan, I can’t tell if your question is sincere, but just in case the expression hasn’t traveled to Canada; they’re **all** ugly. From the expression “Bumping uglies.” 😉😃 > [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > … New laws that force people to use bathrooms corresponding to their birth certificate only serve to make life shittier for transgendered people… I’m of the opinion this is what it’s all about. It’s just wrong. Probably stems from their resentment over same sex marriages. It’s 4:00 am, and I’ve read the thread through. Forgive me if my answer seems a bit all over the place, but it all relates to things I’ve read. I’m female, and I’ve used public restrooms with transgendered men. Never for a moment was I afraid of them. I may have offended one when I asked how to get those cheekbones, but hell, talking make-up in the bathroom is one of the things women sometimes do. I bartended for 10 years, and so may have been exposed to a different type of people. I have twice been shown female genitalia in the bathroom. One time it was a dancer from a local bar who had a bit of a crush on me, and thought it would be cute to lift her skirt and flash me. She always did things simply for the shock value. The other time, it was my own “fault,” a friend had gotten a piercing and asked if I’d like to see it. I was curious, and we went in a stall so no one else had to see it. Keep in mind, this was in a bar, so there was no risk of frightening the children!! On many occasions, I’d use the men’s room in that bar. The door opened onto a wall, so there was no danger of my embarrassing anyone. I’d pop open the door and call out, “There’s a line in the women’s and I have to go NOW!! Do you have an empty stall?” After an answer of yes, I’d pause, and say, “Does everybody have their bits put away?” I’d only do this when it was all regulars in there, and they knew that when I was working, I waited as long as I could. (Made me laugh, every time, one of them would say, “Don’t sit on the seat!!!” As if… :rolleyes: ) **aceplace57** , you do realize that transgendered men actually **feel** like women? It’s **not** just what they call themselves, it’s how they feel about their sense of self. As such, they’d be as likely to rape another woman as your wife would, if you can wrap your head around that one!! ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/237 "2016-05-05T13:44:05Z")
After five pages of tension, I think it’s time for a little levity. **[The Original Transgender Bathroom](http://funnyoroffensive.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/FullSizeRender-33.jpg)**😃 Had a good laugh? OK great, now get back to quarreling. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/238 "2016-05-05T14:12:11Z")
Well, the Feds have weighed in that they consider the batroom provisions of NC’s law to violate Federal civil rights laws. This definitely isn’t just something that’s going to pass on by, and it amazes me that some people are so adamant about hurting a small minority that they think is weird that this will actually get to court: > **[Obama administration says HB2 violates federal civil rights laws](https://www.wral.com/obama-administration-says-hb2-violates-federal-civil-rights-laws/15682472/)** > > President Barack Obama's Justice Department has ordered North Carolina to stop enforcing a portion of a new state law preventing transgender state workers from using the bathroom of their choice. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/239 "2016-05-05T19:38:06Z")
> [@Why\_Child](#): > > snip > > **aceplace57** , you do realize that transgendered men actually **feel** like women? It’s **not** just what they call themselves, it’s how they feel about their sense of self. As such, they’d be as likely to rape another woman as your wife would, if you can wrap your head around that one!! **aceplace57** might be mistaking “transgendered” for “transvestite.” No that transvestites would actually be a problem either, but I have a feeling that many people think that anyone who calls him/herself transgendered is just playing dress-up. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498/240 "2016-05-06T03:22:55Z")
And, to be fair, officially, the public bathroom laws are intended to protect against transvestites claiming to be transgender, not transgender people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/puzzled-by-transgender-bathroom-laws/752498.md?page=13)