Yeah, I’m wondering where he’s going with this too.
Now THAT’S fucking disgusting. I would think something like that would motivate a guy to try and sneak into the lady’s room more than some need to spy on people. :eek: (closest I could get to a barfing smiley)
As has been already pointed out, that is EXACTLY THE SITUATION before this idiotic law was put into place.
Now, a person who looks exactly like a woman, and is dressed as a woman, and is going through life as a woman (but has “male” on her birth certificate) is REQUIRED BY LAW to use the men’s room.
So you support this law… but then you disagree with the law entirely.
As it stands, the ONLY THING this law will accomplish is to enable bigoted assholes the ability to decide that they are PERSONALLY OFFENDED by how someone looks or dresses, and use that as an excuse to call the police on them.
How should this apply to people who are not transgender?
If a masculine looking women goes to use the ladies room what should happen? Do you stop her and say mam your wearing a lumberjack shirt you must go to the men’s room?
The last guy I dated could pass as a woman. His wardrobe includes women’s clothing as it fits well. He identifies as a man and is certainly male. If someone mistakes him as a women does he have to go pee outside or something?
what does that have to do with this issue? It all happened in the men’s room, and it was all consensual. I personally don’t think buying drugs or bjs should even be a crime, but I do hope they used the stalls for the bjs so weary travelers simply trying to empty their bladders didn’t have to see that when they walked in.
That has nothing to do with men dressing like women and sneaking into the woman’s room in order to attack women, which is what people claim to be worried about.
I’m still wondering about all the children hanging out in the bathroom where **aceplace57 **works and changes his clothes.
Of course we close the stall door. The half-open door is the universal signal for “unoccupied,” so if you don’t, someone else will walk in and hit you in the face with it.
I have never, ever seen a woman go into a stall and not close the door and lock it. Ever.
Unless you frequent womens’ bathrooms, your comfort level is completely irrelevant.
Thomas Jefferson wrote long ago that “Ignorance of the law is not an excuse…[because then] the laws would lose their effect because [such ignorance] can always be pretended.”
From the arguments I’ve seen amongst the extremely religious (Christian*) opponents of acceptance of transgender people in the populace, the argument they’re trying to sell is that any male pervert# with intentions to go into the women’s restroom and do something perverse (masturbate, or expose himself, or somehow interact with an unwilling female) could do so and, if caught in the ‘wrong’ restroom and questioned, would be able to (falsely) invoke a transgender restroom choice law in order to avoid arrest, prosecution, etc. Furthermore, even if a male pervert# was caught, arrested, prosecuted, etc. the damage to his victim(s) would already have scarred said victim(s) for life. Therefore, the argument goes, such a loophole must never be made available lest the perverts abuse it in order to abuse our women.
As for this controversy in general, I believe it was Irving Goffman who recognized in the early 1960’s that the indicators and expressions of gender are very much social constructs. In the confines of one’s home any person is free to wear whatever garments or undergarments he/she/it desires and in most homes there is no specific restroom designated for men or women – either can use whichever is most convenient. It is only in public venues that we find gender-separated facilities for dispatching the remains of our food consumption and only when encountering others do we risk censure, ridicule, and violent reactions for wearing clothing or accessories designated for the other gender. Furthermore, the gender-association of many accessories has changed over time.
–G!
*It is not the least bit surprising that these laws come from extreme monotheists who are, ultimately, trying desperately to stave off the demise of their hegemony by legislating against elements they see as a threat. In this case, the roots of their mythology postulate that the knowledge of (or ability to distinguish between) good and evil began with the distinction of gender and its differences, after which the rest of the perfect paradise fell to pieces and the universe has never been so wonderful. In addition to defending the maxim that there are only two possible genders (male and female) this kind of legislation also attempts to enforce the credo that God Makes No Mistakes and, therefore, one’s gender identity, genitalia, and sexual preference MUST BE accepted as defined at birth and any unwillingness to stick with God’s personal decision regarding those individual characteristics is automatically a sin–which must be prevented either by force or legislation.
#I find it interesting and ironic that the perpetrators of these convoluted arguments most frequently tend to frame their slippery slope arguments in terms of protecting the women (and children) from the horrible deeds of immoral men. This is the type of argument in defense of purdah, the practice of making women conduct their lives out of the sight of men “because men just can’t control themselves” around women whose gender dimorphic features are visible. It would seem to me to be an easier approach to simply decree and enforce a “Everyone: You will be severely punished, to the point of having to live to regret it, if you abuse someone.” But perhaps that’s just me lacking a full enough appreciation for religion.
yup. these laws, made by men and for men, don’t make any sense because well, they don’t. Don’t men feel any kind of shame that they “can’t control themselves” and therefore we have to enact all these laws that punish their victims?
Also keep in mind that very young kids have incredibly plastic, adaptable brains. It’s how they learn language, learn to walk, learn that fire is hot. They are quite capable of understanding that “boys clothes” and “girls clothes” are arbitrary categories and nothing bad happens if you don’t follow the “rules.” You only have to be willing to teach them that.
In my experience, very young kids take their cues about what is “upsetting” from adults.
Here’s something that I just thought of that puzzles me about bathroom law advocates: why do they always say they’re concerned about someone specifically harassing people in the “opposite sex” bathroom? As the other side points out, that’s so clearly a crime that the law has nothing to do with it! If they were smart, they’d tell tales of men going into the women’s bathroom and behaving himself, never doing anything illegal… Sure, he’s LOOKING and COMPLIMENTING women, but those aren’t illegal!
It seems to me that going for the creepy vibe would be more effective than evoking straight out crimes when doing so is so easily answered.
Yup. My daughter and I listen to NPR on the way to school most mornings. I sometimes turn the story off if it’s too terrifying: ISIL beheadings, sexual assaults of kidnap victims, Trump winning another primary, that sort of thing.
But bathroom issues? She asked me about it; I explained the law; she said, “But that’s horrible!” and we talked about local groups trying to verturn HB2.
If there were a kid who transitioned at her school, she’d ask me some questions about it, and move on with her life.
Kids often get things quickly that grownups take years to understand.
My cousin Dee has wider shoulders than my brother Jay and needs a bra like a bull does. Bimba Bosé is a cis woman, but put her in anything which doesn’t emphasize the femaleness and she could be a boy. I know a woman who wears her hair very short, has less curves than Bimba and sounds like she’s been having glass for breakfast; people tend to get a relieved look when they hear her evidently-female name.
Any of them could have trouble going into the female bathroom in NC, under this law.
The store I worked in had a temporary worker over the holidays" androgynous name, looks and voice. I had to ask the manger privately and very softly “That’s a female (name), right?”
Two other workers ask me about this, and one worker flatly refused to believe she was a she. “What? No way! I don’t think she started off as a she.”
Well, deal with it. Excellent worker, and if you don’t like going in the ladies room when she’s in there, don’t.
ETA: One local library had signs on their single use bathroom that “This bathroom is for use for women only” and a corresponding one onethe men’s room. I notice the signs have been taken down.
Leaffan, I can’t tell if your question is sincere, but just in case the expression hasn’t traveled to Canada; they’re all ugly. From the expression “Bumping uglies.” 
I’m of the opinion this is what it’s all about. It’s just wrong. Probably stems from their resentment over same sex marriages.
It’s 4:00 am, and I’ve read the thread through. Forgive me if my answer seems a bit all over the place, but it all relates to things I’ve read.
I’m female, and I’ve used public restrooms with transgendered men. Never for a moment was I afraid of them. I may have offended one when I asked how to get those cheekbones, but hell, talking make-up in the bathroom is one of the things women sometimes do.
I bartended for 10 years, and so may have been exposed to a different type of people. I have twice been shown female genitalia in the bathroom. One time it was a dancer from a local bar who had a bit of a crush on me, and thought it would be cute to lift her skirt and flash me. She always did things simply for the shock value. The other time, it was my own “fault,” a friend had gotten a piercing and asked if I’d like to see it. I was curious, and we went in a stall so no one else had to see it. Keep in mind, this was in a bar, so there was no risk of frightening the children!!
On many occasions, I’d use the men’s room in that bar. The door opened onto a wall, so there was no danger of my embarrassing anyone. I’d pop open the door and call out, “There’s a line in the women’s and I have to go NOW!! Do you have an empty stall?” After an answer of yes, I’d pause, and say, “Does everybody have their bits put away?” I’d only do this when it was all regulars in there, and they knew that when I was working, I waited as long as I could. (Made me laugh, every time, one of them would say, “Don’t sit on the seat!!!” As if… :rolleyes: )
aceplace57, you do realize that transgendered men actually feel like women? It’s not just what they call themselves, it’s how they feel about their sense of self. As such, they’d be as likely to rape another woman as your wife would, if you can wrap your head around that one!!
After five pages of tension, I think it’s time for a little levity.
The Original Transgender Bathroom
Had a good laugh? OK great, now get back to quarreling.
Well, the Feds have weighed in that they consider the batroom provisions of NC’s law to violate Federal civil rights laws. This definitely isn’t just something that’s going to pass on by, and it amazes me that some people are so adamant about hurting a small minority that they think is weird that this will actually get to court:
aceplace57 might be mistaking “transgendered” for “transvestite.” No that transvestites would actually be a problem either, but I have a feeling that many people think that anyone who calls him/herself transgendered is just playing dress-up.
And, to be fair, officially, the public bathroom laws are intended to protect against transvestites claiming to be transgender, not transgender people.