# Q about Nobility, or Why aren't the British hip-deep in Dukes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 1, 2016, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896 "2016-01-01T14:00:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/41 "2016-01-02T15:58:53Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Or he could have just ignored the fact, couldn’t he? > > I mean, it sounds like the benefits of having a title are pretty minimal. No money or power. You get the right to be formally addressed in various ways (I bet your friends and family still call you Bob or whatever) and maybe it guarantees you an invitation to Coronations or Royal Weddings. Anything else? You can opt to stand for ‘election’ to the remaining 90 hereditary peer seats in the House of Lords. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/42 "2016-01-02T16:00:16Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Anything else? It probably helps with restaurant bookings. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/43 "2016-01-02T16:04:47Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > I think some of Charles II’s titles for his illegitimate children may still be in existence, but if memory serves, the next two that still survive are from the younger sons of George V. The Dukes of Richmond and Lennox (two titles, one Duke) are descendants of a son of Charles II and his mistress, Louise de Kerouaille: [Duke of Richmond - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Richmond) The other surviving Charles titles are the Dukes of St Albans, descended from Charles’s son with Nell Gwynn: [Duke of St Albans - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_St_Albans) – and the Dukes of Grafton, via one of his sons with Barbara Palmer: [Duke of Grafton - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Grafton) For a change, except for one nephew and a jump to a grandson or two, it looks like there’s been pretty much direct father to son lines for these since the 1600s. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/44 "2016-01-02T16:08:19Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Or he could have just ignored the fact, couldn’t he? At the time he got to sit and vote in the House of Lords. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/45 "2016-01-02T16:18:07Z")
I seem to recall hearing that British titles are dying out at the rate of dozens per year. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/46 "2016-01-03T02:09:36Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > …and maybe it guarantees you an invitation to Coronations or Royal Weddings. Anything else? Royal weddings no, but yes to coronations. All adult peers (& their wives) get invited to the coronation to pay homage to the sovereign. They have to pay for their own ceremonial robes though, and it’s not clear where life peers would fit in. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/47 "2016-01-03T04:53:49Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > I seem to recall hearing that British titles are dying out at the rate of dozens per year. Most peers these days are life peers, and they skew old. The House of Lords has 760 eligible members, there’s maybe a quarter the same again of ineligible hereditary ones and others who don’t participate/have resigned. I hold, let us pretend, the baronetcy of Greenback, and that dies with me, regardless of my spawn. But there’s new peers created twice a year, so the total number stays stable, but yeah the death rate will likely be a dozen or so a year. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/48 "2016-01-03T07:20:30Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Royal weddings no, but yes to coronations. All adult peers (& their wives) get invited to the coronation to pay homage to the sovereign. They have to pay for their own ceremonial robes though, and it’s not clear where life peers would fit in. No, they don’t even get an automatic invitation to a coronation. In 1953 some peers were guaranteed seats because they fell into certain special categories (privy counsellors, Knights of the Garter etc.), but the rest had to enter their names into a ballot. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/49 "2016-01-03T07:25:36Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > They have to pay for their own ceremonial robes though Although even in 1953, they had a special bargain-basement robe and cap for barons who couldn’t afford the full robe and coronet. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/50 "2016-01-03T10:42:28Z")
> [@lalaith](#): > > …Trivia – Julian Fellows, the Downton Abbey creator, is married to a woman who’s uncle’s title will die off because they can’t find a male heir for it and as a female his wife can’t take the title. > [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/celebritynews/8757793/Julian-Fellowes-inheritance-laws-denying-my-wife-a-title-are-outrageous.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/celebritynews/8757793/Julian-Fellowes-inheritance-laws-denying-my-wife-a-title-are-outrageous.html) The article is slightly erroneous. Lady Fellowes is not “descended” from Lord Kitchener, the first Earl of that name. It was known that he did not consort with females, so the title was created with the intention that his younger brother would inherit. Still, the Kitchener line did not run to males; the title has gone extinct since the article was written. Lady Fellowes is the great-granddaughter of the second Earl Kitchener. Lord Fellowes is only a Life Peer–his son will not inherit. He’s a great fan of Ancient Tradition–unless it works against him; the “unfairness” of females generally not inheriting noble titles in England was used in _Downton_. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/51 "2016-01-03T11:21:30Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > All adult peers (& their wives) get invited to the coronation to pay homage to the sovereign. They have to pay for their own ceremonial robes though, and it’s not clear where life peers would fit in. Well they did in the past. There’s no guarantee that every aspect of a coronation will remain unaltered as it was in 1953. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/52 "2016-01-03T14:38:58Z")
The Duke of Windsor is another example of a created then extinct dukedom. Created in 1937, ended in 1972 with the death of the sole holder, who, btw, had no children. Not likely to be re-created anytime soon given the notoriety of the holder. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/53 "2016-01-03T16:35:03Z")
> [@yabob](#): > > In general, titles are getting very devalued these days, and are sometimes being voluntarily refused within the British Royal Family. Peter and Zara Phillips, for instance, have no noble titles, in spite of their grandmother being the Queen, and their mother being styled “Princess Royal”. From the wiki article on Peter: > > It seems that the family is not handing out titles to children far down in the line of succession on the grounds that they don’t want to saddle anybody that far from the throne with royal duties. I believe Peter Phillips is currently number 13, and dropping fast. Carrying out royal duties is not contingent on getting a title; Zara Phillips; Peter’s sister does infact carry out some royal duties; despite not having a title. This is due to the fact that their are currently few younger adult female royals and its likely to continue under her Uncle and cousin. As she actually has done stuff in real life which would get a ordinary person some recognition; I suspect her Uncle/cousin will grant her some sort of title to make here sound more "royal like. A Baroness perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Bert\_Nobbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@Bert\_Nobbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bert_Nobbins)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/54 "2016-01-03T16:40:32Z")
Here’s a good example of an extinct dukedom: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke\_of\_Suffolk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Suffolk) In my view Suffolk needs a duke. I was born in Suffolk. Just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/55 "2016-01-03T16:51:56Z")
Maybe Harry can be made that? Or Duke of Belfast. Just to make N Ireland interesting again. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/56 "2016-01-03T17:31:29Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > … > William was named Duke of Cambridge just to give the heir of the heir a nice sounding title. It’d been [vacant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Cambridge) for over a hundred years. > > … Well that was lucky. So if Cambridge and Gloucester would have been booked–and forgive me if the answer was made clear in this bewildering discussion\*–they would have to create a new Dukedom (even an underwater one), rather than anything lower? \*As must occasionally arise with differing topic threads to different readers, I smiled when I saw a [nitpick] post above which, to me, was as salient and of a level as any other sentence in any “main” post. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/57 "2016-01-03T17:48:39Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > So if Cambridge and Gloucester would have been booked–and forgive me if the answer was made clear in this bewildering discussion\*–they would have to create a new Dukedom (even an underwater one), rather than anything lower? Is there a requirement that Duchies created by Her Majesty need be British-held? Field Marshall Harold Alexander was made Earl Alexander of Tunis. Could H.M. create a Duke Windsor of California? ---
**Author:** ![Bert\_Nobbins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@Bert\_Nobbins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bert_Nobbins)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/58 "2016-01-03T18:00:22Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Maybe Harry can be made that? I wasn’t thinking of Harry. ---
**Author:** ![lalaith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@lalaith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalaith)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/59 "2016-01-03T19:08:04Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > The article is slightly erroneous. Lady Fellowes is not “descended” from Lord Kitchener, the first Earl of that name. It was known that he did not consort with females, so the title was created with the intention that his younger brother would inherit. Still, the Kitchener line did not run to males; the title has gone extinct since the article was written. > > Lady Fellowes is the great-granddaughter of the second Earl Kitchener. Lord Fellowes is only a Life Peer–his son will not inherit. He’s a great fan of Ancient Tradition–unless it works against him; the “unfairness” of females generally not inheriting noble titles in England was used in _Downton_. Thanks for the update and information. You know the subject quite well. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/60 "2016-01-03T19:18:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I’m not sure that this is so much “accident” as it is “likely.” If something descends only from fathers to sons and cannot descend through daughters, then it’s pretty likely that it’s going to die out in a few generations. Yes, at the very least some of the “branches” are bound to die off. The Imperial House of Japan was facing a succession crisis until the birth of Prince Hisahito in 2006, despite there being multiple sons born into recent generations of the family. After WWII the line of succession was limited to male-line descendants of the Taisho Emperor. (Under previous law then in the absence of other heirs the throne could have passed to a cadet branch of the family.) If this [Imperial family tree on Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_House_of_Japan#Family_tree) is accurate, the Taisho Emperor had four sons (including the Showa Emperor, Hirohito), five male-line grandsons (including the current Emperor), two male-line great-grandsons (the current Crown Prince and his brother), and only the one male-line great-great grandson (young Prince Hisahito). Of these 12 male-line descendants six are already dead, three are at least 80 and married to similarly elderly women, and two are at least 50 and also married to women of similar age. So it seems very unlikely that there will be any more male-line descendants of the Taisho Emperor other than whatever sons Prince Hisahito might someday have, even though it’s a big family and the Taisho Emperor has plenty of other living descendants. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896.md?page=4)