# Q about Nobility, or Why aren't the British hip-deep in Dukes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 1, 2016, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896 "2016-01-01T14:00:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/81 "2016-01-04T20:42:04Z")
Also, the Duchy of Cornwall owns land all over England and Wales - it’s not just in Cornwall. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/82 "2016-01-04T20:45:10Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > Prince Charles, on the other hand, is Duke of Cornwall, and the Duchy of Cornwall still exists and owns a fair amount of land in that area. But again, the title doesn’t confer any special legal status on Charles as far as I know. I suppose there may be archaic by-laws about the right to herd sheep on Bodmin Moor or whatever. The Duchy of Cornwall does indeed have some [special legal privileges](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Cornwall#Legal_status_and_additional_rights), ranging from salvage of shipwrecks to the right to review draft bills affecting the Duchy’s interests, and the Duke (instead of the Queen) appoints the High Sheriff of Cornwall and some other officials. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/83 "2016-01-04T20:57:31Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > The Duchy of Cornwall does indeed have some [special legal privileges](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Cornwall#Legal_status_and_additional_rights), ranging from salvage of shipwrecks to the right to review draft bills affecting the Duchy’s interests, and the Duke (instead of the Queen) appoints the High Sheriff of Cornwall and some other officials. That is more than I appreciated. Although I think I’m right in saying that while “High Sheriff” of a county may sound important, it is essentially a ceremonial role rather than a legal office. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/84 "2016-01-04T21:18:59Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > There can be a process of negotiation over the exact details of the title in cases like that, with the recipient having a certain amount of choice (provided there’s no room for confusion with someone else, or something not sufficiently worthy-sounding about it). We really need to find a worthy person, with family roots in both [Twatt, Orkney, Scotland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twatt,_Orkney) and [Twatt, Shetland, Scotland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twatt,_Shetland), and [del]bribe[/del] persuade the Crown to make him a Lord of Parliament. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/85 "2016-01-04T22:47:49Z")
In 1860 “Bertie”, the future Edward VII, toured Canada and America. Originally they wanted Victoria, she refused, and they got the 18 year crown prince. Prince Albert and Lord Palmerston pushed for it. Eventually Victoria agreed, if for no other reason than to get rid of Bertie for a while. But for some reason he was advised as Lord Renfrew. Didn’t matter, he drew huge crowds of mostly adoring people (except for some Irish in New York City). Not sure why they used one of his lesser titles, maybe they weren’t sure how the first royal visit would go over. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/86 "2016-01-04T23:20:08Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Is there a requirement that Duchies created by Her Majesty need be British-held? Field Marshall Harold Alexander was made Earl Alexander of Tunis. Could H.M. create a Duke Windsor of California? The commanding general of the British forces in the War of 1812, who burned down the White House, was granted the family name extension of “Ross of Blandenburg” for the battle of Bladenburg, Maryland. And his arms were extended to include a broken US flag of fifteen stars and stripes. The oldest Ducal title in existence is that of the Duke of Norfolk, which was created in 1483. It has been inherited through the Howard and FitzAlan-Howard family ever since. As hereditary Earl Marshal, the Duke of Norfolk is one of the few members of the House of Lords who do not have to run for election. Ironically, the Fitzalan-Howards are Catholic, despite being the oldest Ducal title holders in the Protestant kingdom. Other Ducal title holders have died with their heads chopped off, or without heirs, along the way. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/87 "2016-01-04T23:21:35Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > Otherwise you end up like the French aristocracy, with Counts and Vicomptes all over the place with no money. I think it’s even worse in Italy. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/88 "2016-01-04T23:30:59Z")
There is also a title of Marquess, which ranks between Duke and Earl. There are not a lot of them, but the oldest still-existing Marquess is the Marquess of Winchester, created in 1551. ---
**Author:** ![Thylacine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thylacine/32/1143_2.png) [@Thylacine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thylacine)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/89 "2016-01-05T01:41:55Z")
There is a Baronetcy in my family though I come from a younger sibling’s line so have never shared space with the current holder, for some reason I still get named in Burke’s Peerage which is a regular source of amusement as I am scrambling to pay for groceries. [http://www.burkespeerage.com](http://www.burkespeerage.com) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/90 "2016-01-05T04:50:11Z")
On the other hand its actually quite common for desendants of younger sons to evetually inherit. ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/91 "2016-01-05T12:40:14Z")
Big deal…I’M the DUKE Of Earl!🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/92 "2016-01-05T13:25:23Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > In 1860 “Bertie”, the future Edward VII, toured Canada and America. Originally they wanted Victoria, she refused, and they got the 18 year crown prince. Prince Albert and Lord Palmerston pushed for it. Eventually Victoria agreed, if for no other reason than to get rid of Bertie for a while. > But for some reason he was advised as Lord Renfrew. Didn’t matter, he drew huge crowds of mostly adoring people (except for some Irish in New York City). Not sure why they used one of his lesser titles, maybe they weren’t sure how the first royal visit would go over. I understand he used ‘Renfrew’ in order to try to travel relatively incognito. When Bertie when to Biarritz on one of his many _ahem_ holidays, he tended to travel under this name. Lord Renfrew is one of the Prince of Wales’ subordinate titles. His Royal Highness’ full achievement is: **Earl of Chester, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles and Prince and Great Steward of Scotland.** ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/93 "2016-01-05T17:47:45Z")
That would be “achievement” in the purely heraldic sense, of course… ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/94 "2016-01-05T19:04:15Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > That would be “achievement” in the purely heraldic sense, of course… Of course 😉 ---
**Author:** ![xnylder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbce88/32.png) [@xnylder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xnylder)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/95 "2016-01-05T19:08:54Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Titles die out for lack of a male heir relatively frequently. > > And the current monarch has been very stingy about granting hereditary titles. Almost all the recently created peerages will die with the person who was so honored. > [@Lamia](#): > > Yes, at the very least some of the “branches” are bound to die off. > > The Imperial House of Japan was facing a succession crisis until the birth of Prince Hisahito in 2006, despite there being multiple sons born into recent generations of the family. After WWII the line of succession was limited to male-line descendants of the Taisho Emperor. (Under previous law then in the absence of other heirs the throne could have passed to a cadet branch of the family.) If this [Imperial family tree on Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_House_of_Japan#Family_tree) is accurate, the Taisho Emperor had four sons (including the Showa Emperor, Hirohito), five male-line grandsons (including the current Emperor), two male-line great-grandsons (the current Crown Prince and his brother), and only the one male-line great-great grandson (young Prince Hisahito). > > Of these 12 male-line descendants six are already dead, three are at least 80 and married to similarly elderly women, and two are at least 50 and also married to women of similar age. So it seems very unlikely that there will be any more male-line descendants of the Taisho Emperor other than whatever sons Prince Hisahito might someday have, even though it’s a big family and the Taisho Emperor has plenty of other living descendants. I was about to write about the Japanese royals, but \*\*Lamia \*\*scooped me… I’ll just add that Japan has found a way to deal with Acsenray’s issue, though less for ruling and more for commerce. There are several businesses in Japan that claim to have been held by the same family for centuries. To manage this, however, the families have [adopted a male heir](http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2013/04/economist-explains-why-adults-adopted-japan) whenever there is no suitable candidate to inherit the business. Sometimes, for good measure, they will then have one of the family’s daughters marry the young man. So ways can be found, even in cases of male-only inheritance. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/96 "2016-01-05T19:19:55Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Alfred the Great (849 – 26 October 899) is usually considered to be the first English king from 871. So that’s 1145 years of Kings and Queens. Before that it was pretty split up with tribes. As an aside: Alfred was king of the kingdom of Wessex (and certainly not the first king of Wessex). It is just that Wessex was the last major kingdom in England to survive intact from the assault of the Northmen - except for half of Mercia and a bit of what became Northumbria. That made him the only Anglo-Saxon king left standing: but while he certainly would have liked to be king of England, he only ever ruled a part of it. After his death, his equally-remarkable daughter ruled in the kingdom of Mercia but not as queen - her title was “Lady of the Mercians” (presumably so as not to annoy her brother, who ruled as king of Wessex). The first person to have a reasonable claim to be king of all England was his grandson, Æthelstan. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/97 "2016-01-05T19:20:01Z")
Is there any sort of Japanese nobility below the Imperial family? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/98 "2016-01-05T19:30:12Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Is there any sort of Japanese nobility below the Imperial family? [Yep](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuge), there [is](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazoku). Traditionally the Japanese nobility proper ( the _Kuge_ ) were royal cadets that made up the court and were behind-the-scenes actors. This was somewhat distinct from the provincial [daimyo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimyo)/[shugo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shugo) that everyone knows from **Shogun** who wielded power more directly. They too generally had a descent from the royal house, but more often much more anciently. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/99 "2016-01-15T05:02:57Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > …The Imperial House of Japan was facing a succession crisis until the birth of Prince Hisahito in 2006, despite there being multiple sons born into recent generations of the family… For more, see this: [Japanese imperial succession debate - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_succession_controversy) > [@PatrickLondon](#): > > …The last time the question [of creating a new Duke] was raised (possibly) was in relation to Winston Churchill on his retirement as PM. The story goes that he declined, possibly because he wanted to stay in the House of Commons as long as possible… Later biographers also suggested he wanted to keep open the possibility of his son Randolph serving again in the House of Commons. British peers couldn’t decline a their titles until later: [Peerage Act 1963 - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peerage_Act_1963) > [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The commanding general of the British forces in the War of 1812, who burned down the White House, was granted the family name extension of “Ross of Blandenburg” for the battle of Bladenburg, Maryland. And his arms were extended to include a broken US flag of fifteen stars and stripes… Well, that’s just mean… but it _was_ quite an abject defeat of the U.S. forces there. Are you sure there wasn’t an “s” in the title?: [Battle of Bladensburg - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bladensburg) > [@Tamerlane](#): > > [Yep](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuge), there [is](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazoku). Traditionally the Japanese nobility proper ( the _Kuge_ ) were royal cadets that made up the court and were behind-the-scenes actors… Note, from those links, that they lost their official status and standing in the Imperial Court after WWII. ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896/100 "2016-01-16T00:20:30Z")
> [@Bert\_Nobbins](#): > > Here’s a good example of an extinct dukedom: > > [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke\_of\_Suffolk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Suffolk) > > In my view Suffolk needs a duke. I was born in Suffolk. Just a thought. That was the theme in “Tess of the D’Urbervilles”. the D’urbervilles were extinct-a rich guy (one of the rising class of English industrialists) bought the estate and the title came with it. Of course, as Thomas Hardy suggests, it would have been better (for tess) if she had never found out that she was (in fact) an aristocrat (albeit a poor one). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/q-about-nobility-or-why-arent-the-british-hip-deep-in-dukes/741896.md?page=6)